Gaelynn Lea
Tiny Desk to Broadway: The Creative World of Gaelynn Lea, Musician and Disability Rights Activist
The transcript of this interview is below. This link takes you to the podcast, video and show notes with all the other links !
Gaelynn Lea:
(Music: clip of Fairies and Dragons) One gift I guess, of disability, especially a very, very visible one, you cannot mask. Some people talk about the, it's exhausting to mask and I can't even, I mean, I can imagine, but I can't relate to that. That is the opposite of how my life has unfolded. So at a certain point, you can continue to be upset by it, or you can just say, I can't possibly use my brain energy on being upset with how people perceive me. And it was around junior high when I kind of finally was like, I don't care enough to care about this. I mean, it's not fun. Sometimes little kids will cry when they see you or people will, I mean things that, I could talk about more, but I don't because it's obviously if we had more education about disability and more inclusion, that wouldn't happen. It's novelty. That's what it is, and it's usually not malicious; once in a great while you run into someone where you're like, are they trying to be a jerk? But honestly, even the weirdest comments usually come out of they don't know what to say and they're trying to connect or they're trying to assure themselves of something, or it's almost never about me.
Leah Roseman:
Hi, you’re listening to Conversations with Musicians, with Leah Roseman, which I hope inspires you through the personal stories of a fascinating diversity of musical guests.Gaelynn Lea is a violinist, singer-songwriter, disability rights advocate, author, and public speaker. Born with osteogenesis imperfecta, commonly known as brittle bone disease, Gaelynn began her musical journey with the support of a childhood music teacher and her musical family. You’ll hear about how her big break happened when she won NPR Music’s Tiny Desk Contest in 2016, which led to a fascinating creative life which in the last few years has included international touring and scoring Macbeth on Broadway, starring Daniel Craig and Ruth Negga. Gaelynn is really open to trying new things, and this really came through as she talked to me about how she’ll never have enough time to explore all her curiosities, reflections on her first compositions and songs, how she collaborated with mentors Alan Sparhawk, and Charlie Parr, and how she created a new musical fable for the stage called Invisible Fences with disabled storyteller Kevin Kling. You’ll be hearing clips from some of Gaelynn’s albums during the podcast, and her Bandcamp is linked in the show notes for you. We begin with a look at her upcoming memoir—It Wasn’t Meant to Be Perfect— a warm, funny and deeply-felt exploration of disability, music, and the messy creativity of an artist’s life. I plan to welcome Gaelynn back for a future episode focused on that work. You can find the pre-order link in the show notes. It will be published by Algonquin Press in April 2026.Like all my episodes, you can watch this on my YouTube channel or listen to the podcast on many podcast platforms, and I’ve also linked the transcript.It’s a joy to bring these inspiring episodes to you every week, and I do all the many jobs of research, production and publicity. Have a look at the show notes of this episode, where you’ll find all the links, including different ways to support this podcast!
Hey, Gaelynn, so nice to have you on the show.
Gaelynn Lea:
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Leah Roseman:
I know you've been really busy editing your upcoming memoir. It's going to be published this coming spring.
Gaelynn Lea:
Yeah, April 14th, it's called "It wasn't Meant to Be Perfect", and it'll be out on Algonquin Press. So it's coming up, it seems like far away is still kind of, but we're starting to really get into planning the release, so it's really exciting time actually.
Leah Roseman:
It really is. And this is sort of a long-term project. You've been working on it for a while.
Gaelynn Lea:
Yes, so yes, in 2021, I started working with a book coach to make a book proposal because that's what you need for nonfiction books. You don't finish the book first, you send it out as a proposal. That took about a year. I mean, it was such a bigger process, but I imagined you have to have a couple sample chapters, and I ended up having to rewrite those because they weren't strong enough and just kind of all this stuff took forever. And then I got it in a little bit after Macbeth, to be honest. And then it took 15 months to write. I mean, not the fastest probably, but also it was a big project. And then I have been editing it since the end of December, 2024. So the last nine months has been editing, so it's cool, but it is a lot bigger than I thought, and you kind of think, oh, I, I've done lots of writing and like, oh, this proposal, even the proposal, how it started and what I thought it was going to end up in and how it ended up is still pretty different.
So there's no part of the process where I really knew what I was getting myself into, I guess, if that makes any sense. But I'm still excited for it now. It really feels good. It feels like a book. I think it reads well. I hope people will learn about disability and music both. I kind of saw them as equally important in the memoir. So I want people who love music to feel like they got a really good musical narration, and then people who care about disability or don't care about it yet and want to learn about it, that they'll get equally fed. So it's kind of a two part, not two part, but two streams of consciousness. So it's kind of fun that way too for me to get to talk about both instead of just one or the other all the time.
Leah Roseman:
It's such a great title, Gaelynn, and is it a reference to Osteogenesis Imperfecta?
Gaelynn Lea:
Yeah, it's got a couple references. One of them is, yeah, it wasn't meant to be perfect. The disability I have is a brittle bones disease, but the official name is Osteogenesis Imperfecta, but also the song that it references is from Macbeth. The last album I released, there's a song on there called Perfect, and that's one of the last lines in the song. So it was fun to be able to kind of tie everything music and disability together, even in the title, the goal is to make it really feel cohesive. So yeah, that title was fun. It was going to originally be called Linger in the Sun, but it didn't feel like it fit the arc of the story, even though that is the song that, Some Day We Will Linger in the Sun, the song is the song that I entered into the Tiny Desk, and it really was, it's an important song to me, but the themes of the book are a lot more aligned with this title, so I'm glad we got to switch it about, I dunno, eight months ago we decided to switch the title. I like this one better. Yeah,
Leah Roseman:
One of my previous guests is the Irish Fiddler Martin Hayes, and he wrote a beautiful memoir, and I remember asking him how he was able to remember so many details, and he said, it's like a thread when you start to pull it, sort of things come to you. Did you find that?
Gaelynn Lea:
Yes. That's a really good way to put it. I had that outline, the chapter outline, and it's about a page per chapter where you say, this is what I'm going to talk about. But then when you actually start writing it, at least what I did is I just let myself write where my brain went, and that's great and terrible at the same time because the first version of this book was 125,000 words, and the actual book is under 90. So I ended up having to cut almost a third. But the thing that was good about that is I didn't have to censor myself at all. And so if something was coming up that like, oh, I hadn't thought about it in that way, or I hadn't thought of that thing before, I just gave myself permission to write it because yeah, you don't always know what memories are going to come back or what part of the memories you realize you're writing about this story, but you can't really explain its impact unless you address what happened five years earlier first. And so yeah, it's like a thread. That's a good way of putting it, like a sweater or something.
Leah Roseman:
So I'm assuming there'll be an audio book as well?
Gaelynn Lea:
Yeah, I'm recording it in the end of January, beginning of February.
Leah Roseman:
Okay, that's great.
Gaelynn Lea:
I'm so nervous. What's going to be fun about that as a musician is there will be music underneath it in and out, not constantly or anything, but it's a totally different, I mean, man, you think you know what you're getting into. Once again, I hadn't really thought of it, but it's this creative, it's a whole other creative project where it can be different than just reading it through, which is what I thought I'd have to get comfortable, which I will. But then it becomes kind of a work of art, like a podcast where you can put sounds in there. So there'll be parts, I think, where even not just recorded music, but I think I'm going to probably demonstrate how I loop actually, audio wise and then have that underneath these people who are in charge of the projects have done musician memoirs before. And so stuff that I would not have thought of my own at all. So I think it's going to be fun. It's a little bit nerve wracking. I haven't done an audio book before, but they said just try to read it out loud a few times in December and January and get comfortable with it, and it should be fun. So I don't know if it's a new adventure, but I'm glad there's going to be an audio book, and I'm excited that they are letting me read it because it, it's not always the case with the author reads it, but I think it'll feel hopefully more tangible that way.
Leah Roseman:
More authentically you.
Gaelynn Lea:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The stories will feel more real hopefully, and the music in there is really going to help. I think that's going to be super fun. I'm not going to be, that's the cool thing is there's editors, so I have some say, but I don't have to, that would be a lot of pressure, I think, to figure out where exactly to put the perfect thing that these people have done it before. So I think it's be cool group project kind of.
Leah Roseman:
Now, you mentioned your Macbeth album. That was such a cool project that you wrote the music for this Broadway production, and I know you got this request and you weren't sure what this was. Do you want to tell us about that?
Gaelynn Lea:
Yeah, so as I said in 2021, I was working on the book proposal and I felt the sense of urgency because little did I know the pandemic would go on and continue to be with us in some ways even now. But especially then, I have really small lungs. I'm pretty cautious, even now I'm not hesitant, but trying to navigate it in a way that feels safe. So especially in the middle of 2021, I was still pretty much living almost in lockdown really. But I said to myself, well, this is the perfect time to write the memoir. So I was really busy on that, and I didn't want to stop basically. So when I got this request, I wasn't even really sure if it was actually Broadway. It felt so far out of left field that I just couldn't, my brain did not compute basically. And so I kept questioning and questioning, and finally the director had to be like, well, Daniel Craig is playing Macbeth, but I didn't know who that was. I never know who any celebrities are. And so I was like, oh, has he been in movies or something? And he's like, he was James Bond. And I was like, oh, okay. This is definitely Broadway then, because you can't get Daniel Craig off Broadway that easily. I don't think so. Anyway, so then I decided to do it, but it was, again, it was one of those projects where you don't really know what to expect. It wasn't something I had done before. So I recorded for three full months, three times a week, like four hours a night or whatever to get all the cues ready, because originally the director had thought about me just doing it in 10 days in New York, and there is no way, I mean, I knew, luckily I've done enough albums to know that that was, maybe some people can do that, but I was not going to be able to do it that way. So I said, I'd really like to have it done before I get there, and then we can edit it there Then, so that the editing was a much, much bigger process and real time. I mean, we were making changes up to the previews through previews basically, and so it doesn't get really finalized until a couple of days before opening night. So all of that was me working with the sound engineer Jake Larson, to get it ready. And it was a lot, but it was fun. I mean, in retrospect, it was more fun in retrospect than it was in the moment maybe, but, and then it came out and it was just really fun to see opening night, my parents flew out and my in-laws flew out, and it was a really special, Michael Stipe was there with me. I had met him and this whole melange of life, and he's the lead singer of REM. That's his thing. So we got connected back while I was recording Macbeth, he asked if I could sing some harmonies on a track, and so I did. But then we actually got to meet out in New York, which was really fun, and it happened around that time. And so it was just a really special memory that night. And then I went home and it went on for several months, and I always intended to release it as a soundtrack. This happened in opening night, was the end of April in 2022, but the book just really took over my life, but I finally got a fellowship. That's what Spark did actually, is I got a fellowship called the Whippoorwill Arts Fellowship , and it's really amazing. And if you know any folk artists, I would connect with Whippoorwill. Well, they do a lot of good work outside of this fellowship to support folk music and specifically that's their passion, and it had to be tied to a project. And I was like, well, I'm writing a book, it has to be taught to a music project. And I was like, I'm not going to be able to come up with a new album in this period of time. It was the 18 month period or something. So I was like, what about releasing tracks that I have not yet released and then touring with it? And they were like, yeah, that would be cool. So I mixed it with Jake. He did a lot of the prem mixing to get it ready and basic editing. And then we spent a month mixing, not even a month I think we did it. We kind of knew by then I had heard the music a lot, so maybe it was like three weeks or something, and we got it mixed and mastered, and then I went to the UK to promote it. I'd love to do that in the US once the album's out or once the book is out, I'm going to kind of jointly bring those to various places. I never got a chance then it was heavy into editing. So yeah, never got a chance to really promote that Macbeth album officially. But it was such a fun, and I love the way it was so fun to make something so atmospheric and weird. I mean, the tracks are 12 minute long instrumental ones. It's a very different album than anything.
Leah Roseman:
It is, yeah. So let's talk about "Perfect", that last track, the song on the Macbeth album, I was wondering, is this referring to Lady Macbeth? What is this?
Gaelynn Lea:
Well, in the play, it was. In real life. I mean, I wrote it right before I got asked to do Macbeth. So it was sort of like the stars aligned maybe the week before. I mean, it was right around the same time. And it's really about marriage, about you don't really, you kind of have this vision of what it's going to be, and it's not always the way you imagine it, and it doesn't mean that bad. It's just marriage is an interesting, and I mean any long-term relationship like that is just your expectations don't always match what you are actually living. And so the song is kind of about marriage, but then it dawned on me, I was going on a walk shortly after I had accepted the assignment that it really felt also something Lady Macbeth would think in the last moments of her life.
And so it ended up, yeah, every leaded character had their own musical theme in the soundtrack, and that was hers. And it doesn't come in until the very end. It's like the last cue and the last moment of the play. But in order to kind of seed her in throughout, I took a line from the bridge, the melody, and kind of made cues out of that one line that kind of flows in and out of the play. So I don't know if anyone else will ever notice, but it made me extremely happy to have this little nerdy Easter egg throughout for her theme. And then the real theme is the song. So it was really fun. Yeah, that was probably my favorite part of making that was finding ways to keep her in the play without giving away the fact that it was the song at the end.(Music: clip from "Perfect" from Macbeth album)
Leah Roseman:
So for people who aren't familiar with you, it might be good to talk about how you grew up. I was thinking about your school music teacher who was so flexible and creative in encouraging you to play violin a little differently, and the fact that you'd done adaptive ballet and kayaking and other things, you were used to thinking it that way.
Gaelynn Lea:
Yeah, I had a really wonderful teacher. She was just the public school orchestra teacher, so it wasn't like a adaptive music person, but in order to join orchestra, you had to take a music listening test, and I happened that year to be the only one that got a perfect score, and it's not some great, it wasn't a very hard test in my opinion. It was just like, which note is higher? Which note is lower? But I do have a developed ear. My family's really musical. And so I think because of that, and maybe she would've done it for any kid, I hope that's the case, but I know that at least in the, we're talking the mid nineties, this was a long time ago, way before a lot of the disability representation we're seeing today was really visible. So on her own accord, basically she was like, I should probably try to help this person figure out how to play if this is what she wants to do. And so we experimented with the cello. That's what I really wanted to do at the beginning, but it just really wasn't working. We both came to that conclusion. She didn't say, no, that's not going to work. We tried it and it just wasn't going to work. And so then we eventually figured out that I could play the violin kind of like a cello. So it kind of met the technical requirements and it still kind of felt like I was playing a little cello, which I liked what I wanted to do.
I think on some hands, I think when you're disabled, especially if it's a physical disability that affects your day-to-day functioning, I kind of think in all respects, disability makes adaptation a requirement of living every day you are adapting and it's eventually, it just kind of becomes the way you approach everything. So for me, it didn't feel like a big ask to try to learn the violin differently. I reach for my coffee cup differently. I have a little reacher stick. I do everything differently. But the remarkable part is that she was open to that. I think that's one thing I wish educators knew, and I wrote a lot about this in the book when I talked about it, is what I wish educators knew. And it's like it shouldn't be a fear of like, oh, they might not go as far because almost no students end up being professional musicians. I mean, it's such a rare thing anyways, so just treat them like any other kid can, help 'em figure it out as far as they can go. And maybe they'll quit after a year or maybe they'll play the rest of their lives. And that's the case with pretty much any kid that you encounter in a music program. It's the same standard actually. It just doesn't look the same because they're adapting. But the adaptation itself isn't the scary part for the disabled kid. The worst part is feeling like you don't want them there. Or I've had another teacher later who is much less cool in that regard. And that's what hurts is when you know that a teacher wishes that they didn't have to think about it. You know what I mean? Or didn't see you in the same light or ended up not providing, just saying you're on your own.
You know what I mean? That's actually the damaging stuff. The damaging stuff is not the unknown of how far, maybe we won't figure this out eventually, as most people do. If you really suck at math, eventually you're just like, I don't really want to do math anymore. I mean, you have to in our school system. So maybe that's a bad example, but you try something, you really aren't getting it. It's a very rare person that's going to keep going forever and ever on it, and then eventually they will get better. I think students, for me, I didn't insist on playing the cello once it became clear it wasn't going to work, I switched gears into something similar, and I think that that happens naturally. I didn't need the teacher to tell me the cello wasn't going to work. I can make figure that out on my own eventually. And I think we all do that naturally. And so some of the fears around disabled students I think are unwarranted. If you look at it through the lens of the kid trying it out,
Leah Roseman:
And the ancestors of the violin are all played in that way. The erhu
Gaelynn Lea:
Yeah, that's the interesting part. Yeah,
Leah Roseman:
Now I've had
Gaelynn Lea:
That's so cool.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. On the series, one of the things I was interested in when I first started it was talking to people in the violin family. So the Mongolian, what's it called? The morin khuur their horsehead fiddle, which is maybe the first ancestor of all these instruments. And I've had many different instruments like that. And I'm curious, have you tried the erhu at all? The Chinese violin?
Gaelynn Lea:
Oh my gosh, it's like a dream. I haven't done it yet. I will someday. I love Chinese traditional music. I listen to it myself, and that is an instrument that's always been like, Ooh, that'd be fun. It's just a matter of I need five lifetimes and I would like them to commence shortly after I pass away, and then I can come back and do another one. Yeah, it does feel like there's just so many things I want to try, but that is on the bucket list of getting, I have a five string, that was another thing that was on a bucket list that does have the low C string, like the cello, and I have it and I got to get better at it. It's a little different to play because the angle of the bow is not what you're expecting, and it is a little bit bigger, so it's a little bit harder for me to navigate, but I still am really glad that I finally got one because I'd always thought that that would be something I'd like to try in the same for sure. With the erhu,
Leah Roseman:
You could get a smaller one too, because someone can make it.
Gaelynn Lea:
Yeah. Yeah. I kind of was trying to judge sound quality with the big, what this one is, which I think will work if I just got to work on it more basically is it's a little bit, it's the same body size as a full size, which I now play. I used to play a seven eighths, but I had a friend who was a really great violinist, but decided she didn't want to do it anymore, and she gave me her violin. And at first I was like, oh no, I could never get rid of the, and I played it and I was like, oh, okay, fine. This sounds such a nice sound. It's big. Mine was a student, it was old, it was a hundred years old, and it still holds a very special place in my heart, but it didn't have a particularly robust sound. And so this one's cool. So now I play a full size, so it's the same height as a full size, but it's a little wider. And that's how he achieves the resonance. So he's not actually taller, which is good for me, but it's just a little unwieldy. But I think I will figure it out. But I love the way it sounds. It's pretty enrich and a little bit bigger than just putting a C string on my violin.
Leah Roseman:
And I understand at a certain point there was a doctor who suggested that if you had surgery that maybe you'd be able to walk but you maybe couldn't play. It might affect the nerves in your hands or something.
Gaelynn Lea:
They couldn't guarantee a lot of success, so I try not to speak out against people doing that. I think a lot of people with my disability do choose to have their limbs straightened, and for some of them I think that works. I happened to know a guy in my hometown whose family, and this was a long time ago, he was older than me by 30 years, his family, him go through a lot of his surgeries and his legs essentially didn't work anymore. He never walked. And so when they were telling me about the surgeries, I'm a little kid, and I mean, who wants to have a surgery as a little kid anyways, personally, but my parents gave me the choice, which I really appreciate, honestly. And again, I'm not going to speak out against people who didn't give their kids a choice. I get it. The younger you do it, the easier I think it is to adjust. But they didn't feel comfortable with that. So they said, you can decide. And so as a pretty young kid, eight or nine, you start talking about it, you hear that once puberty happens, it's a lot harder. So there's sort of a time, a shelf limit of how long you can make that decision.
But they would say things like, well, you might be able to walk. You might be able to even run around, or you can maybe do short distances or at least stand. And then they started getting into some of the side effects or whatever. My arms are so bent, they're beyond 90 degree angles, but they were worried about maybe damaging the nerves when they straightened out my arm because the nerves grow around your bone, and that's a lot of impact for them. And it never sounded like, for sure I want to do it. And then after I started playing violin, I basically knew I definitely didn't want to do it because losing feeling in your hands or your feet, I mean, of course, again, everybody's life is different and you can obviously lead a good life that way, but I felt like why would, it just wasn't important to me anymore to walk. The life I had built was really fun, and I didn't feel like that was a risk I needed to take. And again, everybody's got to make that decision for themselves, but I'm glad that I didn't. I really have obviously been impacted a lot by music, and it's a fun way to go, and I wasn't in any pain. I think sometimes people have to make that decision for themselves too, based on pain or whatever. But I wasn't since, so I was like, I just don't know if it feels necessary. So I didn't do the surgeries.
Leah Roseman:
I thought I wanted to get a little bit into some of your albums. Now, a lot of people have heard Someday We'll Linger in the Sun. I knew your music from that Gaelynn, but it's interesting when I thought about having you on the podcast, actually I heard you speaking with Leif Karlstrom, he was on my podcast.
Gaelynn Lea:
Oh yeah, I love that guy.
Leah Roseman:
So sometimes when I do research, I listen to previous interviews people have done to make sure they don't do the same interviews with me and learn a bit more. So I thought, who's this interviewer? They're really good. And then I recognized you, and then I remembered seeing the Tiny Desk thing so many millions of people had. So I'm really glad you agreed to this. But that was the connection is I heard you as an interviewer with him.
Gaelynn Lea:
Oh, that's awesome. Are you serious? Yeah. That's very cool. I loved those. That was the Sunday session shows. Yeah. Yep. I really enjoyed doing those. That's cool that you found that way
Leah Roseman:
Now. So maybe we could include, you also included that song on your Learning How to Stay album in 2018. Yeah. So could we include a clip of that song for people?
Gaelynn Lea:
Oh yeah, for sure.
Leah Roseman:
Okay.
Gaelynn Lea:
Any version. There's three versions actually, which is kind of hilarious, but there's a solo version, a duo version, and then the full band version, whichever one you like.
Leah Roseman:
What's your favorite?
Gaelynn Lea:
It's kind of a mood thing, which is why I have done it many different ways. So whatever you think fits for audio, I think I like the duo version. Maybe it's got these pretty xylophone bell thingies, but honestly, it's really up to you, whichever one you think fits.
Leah Roseman:
Okay, (Music: Someday We'll Linger in the Sun from Learning How to Stay album)
Often for people, getting this Tiny Desk opportunity really changes their life. And for you, this definitely happened.
Gaelynn Lea:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
And you mentioned Paul before your husband, so you guys completely changed your lives, like you went out in the road.
Gaelynn Lea:
Yep.
Leah Roseman:
Hi, just a really quick break from the episode. I wanted to let you know about some other episodes I’ve linked directly to this one, which I think may interest you, with Jesse Stewart, Renée Yoxon, Mark Growdon, Martin Hayes, Kelly ThomaIn the show notes you’ll also find a link to sign up for my newsletter, where you’ll get exclusive information about upcoming guests, a link for my Ko-fi page to support this project directly, where you can buy me one coffee, or every month, and my podcast merchandise store with a design commissioned from artist Steffi Kelly. You can also review this podcast, share it with your friends, and follow on your podcast app, YouTube, and social media. All this helps spread the word! Thanks. Now back to my conversation with Gaelynn.
Gaelynn Lea:
Yes, yes. It was a big, huge change. I think we had been married three years. We had been together 10 at this point, so we had this whole life pattern. He was a custodian at UMD and I taught fiddle lessons, and I had had a bunch of other jobs before that, and we were very firmly Duluth, but that year I had just started thinking about maybe I could try a regional tour in the summer. He didn't have a lot of time off from work, two weeks a year or whatever. So it would've been kind of a big ask, but he was willing to consider it and take that time to go try a tour. And I had just released my first album in November, so four months before the Tiny Desk, All the Roads That Lead Us Home, and that's mostly instrumental. There's two vocal tracks, it's totally solo, all live looped, very stripped down album.
But I was kind of developing in my mind as an artist, I guess more in embodying it instead of just like, this is my hobby. It felt a little more central. And then when I won the Tiny Desk, the thing I wasn't expecting, which I guess you just never know what to expect is, but people from all over the country were like, could you come play at our venue? Could you speak on this? I was also conveniently, literally in October, had done my first speaking gig, and then I had started getting asked to do local nonprofits in the area about accessibility and disability awareness and stuff. And so it was all kind of coming together at this intersection. So when I won the Tiny Desk, I had already just literally a month earlier put that I do public speaking on my website and all these things I kind of developed simultaneously.
And so it kind of dawned on me, if I was ever going to try touring, this would be the time to do it. And so Paul and I talked a lot about it. I had some mentors that I kind of picked their brains and we decided if we wouldn't go into debt, that that's what we wanted to try to do. So he was very fortunate in that his workplace, the university gave him a six month unpaid leave, which they totally did not have to do. So it's really cool that they were excited for us basically, and they wanted us to try it, but they knew, which is true, that if it didn't work, it would've been really sucky to come back to no income. He was the primary breadwinner at the time. So anyways, so they gave him the leave and we finally tried it out, and it was hard, but it was really, really energizing and it was working. LIke public speaking for sure, public speaking helped make that financially feasible. I would not recommend quitting your day job and thinking that you're going to play folk venues and be able to not go into debt. Honestly, that is a hard road. But we had this other thing where I could go speak at a conference now then. And so diversifying is very important I think for anyone as an entrepreneur, but especially as an artist having some other thing that you can do to fill in the gaps. There were definitely shows where there were seven people there and we lost money basically. So I mean, often, more often than one cares to admit. So it's a hard career, but it was really, really fun. And we, we sold our house so that we wouldn't have to be the hook if anything went wrong for it. Got an apartment after that a few months later, and then a little studio where I am right now. It's very small, but it's cute and we really like where it is, and it's close to the lake, lake Superior, and then got a van and just went in full time so that he could come with me. Otherwise I would've had to coordinate personal care attendants to travel. And that's not impossible, but that was very daunting. And I know people who do it, so it's totally is feasible. But also, I just didn't really want to be away from him for weeks at a time. That would've been hard, I think. So that's what we did. Life changed a lot after that, for sure, kind of more. I mean, I knew it was going to be, even when they called and actually told me, we want to announce you as the winner. It's like you don't know how. But that is certainly a game changer. It was completely unexpected when I entered. My video is kind of laughable. There's a glitch when I zoom out from my hand, but it's a crappy phone, terrible video quality. So I just was so far from my mind that I would win. I mean, that was really, really not how I saw that going down after I uploaded the video. So yeah, it was fun though, a really cool time. It was really exciting. So yeah,
Leah Roseman:
I looked up your video submission. I was curious, 'cause I'd heard it was sort of a last minute decision, and I think - You know, your music is very soulful. I really love your singing as well. We'll get into that. But I think there's something about how comfortable you are with yourself and your music, making that a lot of musicians envy, honestly.
Gaelynn Lea:
Oh, interesting. Yeah. You're the first person that has ever said that. That's interesting.
Leah Roseman:
Well, I think that's what strikes me.
Gaelynn Lea:
I wonder. I think one thing, gift I guess, of disability, especially a very, very visible one, it cannot mask. Some people talk about the, it's exhausting to mask, and I can't, I mean, I can imagine, but I can't relate to that. That is the opposite of how my life has unfolded. So at a certain point, you can continue to be upset by it or you can just say, I can't possibly use my brain energy on being upset with how people perceive me. And it was around junior high when I kind of finally was like, I don't care enough to care about this. I mean, it's not fun. Sometimes little kids will cry when they see you or people will ask. I mean things that you, I could talk about more, but I don't because it's obviously, if we had more education about disability and more inclusion, that wouldn't happen.
It's novelty. That's what it is. And it's usually not malicious. It will create while you run into someone where you're like, are they trying to be a jerk? But honestly, even the weirdest comments usually come out of they don't know what to say and they're trying to connect or they're trying to assure themselves of something, or it's almost never about me. And so eventually I was like, I want to be happy. I want to be happy. So if I want to be happy, this can't bother me. I can't do both. And so I think that is where if you sense some kind of comfort in my body, I think it's just at some point here I am. And it's kind of funny because Alan Sparhawk has got this. He's the guy that I learned how to loop from, and he was the lead singer in Low, and he continues to make music. His wife passed, unfortunately, a couple of years ago. They were in the band together, so now he's doing other projects. He was a huge mentor to me, but he's got this super cool persona. He's kind of like a quiet dude, a little edgy, kind of mysterious vibes. And it's hilarious because when we played together, I cannot do that. I cannot be cool. I will not be cool, not on purpose. Our banter on stage was ridiculous because I would be (quick talking sound effect), and he would be like, oh my God. It was like a comedy act on some levels, how different we were. And that's just, I can't at this point really be anything other than I am. And that is a blessing. And sometimes it hurts, I guess. But usually with music, it's been good for me, I think to be in the moment and not really care. And the times when I do care, I mean, it's not like I've never gotten in my own head. I certainly do. And I think every musician, sometimes lets their internal dialogue, hijack them when they're playing. Those are the times that I don't have fun. So it's much more fun to just not be too concerned about its, and just working yourself through that. It's like a form of Buddhism basically is how it feels when you're doing it.
Leah Roseman:
Actually, when you met Alan Sparhawk, you were playing with Charlie Parr at the market?
Gaelynn Lea:
Yeah, I had played with him one other time at a fundraiser because my friend, one of my band mate's at the time encouraged me like, oh, I ask if you can jam. And he's like, no, no, no, I couldn't do that. But then he's like, no, go do it. So I did, and he let me jam with him. And so the next time I encountered him, I knew he was playing at our farmer's market. I was the coordinator with my best friend, and I had hired him. So secretly I brought my violin and hid it under a pile of jackets. I didn't want to pressure him to play with me again. I really wanted to, but I didn't want to be that annoying person that was like, can I play with you? Can I play with you? But he asked me, he's like, Hey, you got your fiddle in.
I was like, why? Yes, I happened to have it here with me. And so we jammed, and I guess Alan was there. I didn't know him. I couldn't have picked him out, but he must have listened for a while because he a couple weeks later, texted me. He got my number from the sound engineer I had worked with on my album and, and then we started with a live score for a Lon Chaney film and on Halloween, like a horror film kind of thing. And then we practiced a lot for that, and then we decided, let's make a band after that. It was really fun. And then literally the day before our first show as our band, I wrote my first song and I showed it to him and he's like, that's good. Let's do it tomorrow. And it was very scary, but it was good for me.
And that's where the stage banter comes in. I was like, I just wrote a song and I've never done that before and I hope it doesn't suck. And he's like, oh, that is terrible. You have to introduce that again. So on stage, this weird dialogue, it's actually on a YouTube video, which makes me very happy. I don't remember what he called it, your Battle or something. It has a different name now. But it was fun that that moment got captured. That was my very, very first time ever singing anything that I had written to an audience. So it was quite nerve wracking.
Leah Roseman:
I saw that video. It was really charming, actually.
Gaelynn Lea:
That was our whole band. That's kind of the vibe of our band. We, so we played many shows up until maybe the year after the Tiny Desk, and then I started doing more, and he was very, very busy with Low. So we still are friends and connect occasionally. We haven't played in a while. But he was such a big part of my journey, a huge mentor. So I'm glad. I'm really grateful that he reached out. I don't think I'd be doing any of this stuff if I hadn't met him, actually.
Leah Roseman:
And Charlie Parr, he's a cool guy. I looked him up too after I read about that.
Gaelynn Lea:
Oh, yeah, he's an amazing guy. He's just a really great blues roots, resonator guitar, writes a lot of his own songs, but also knows all the old 1920s, thirties, blues tunes. And he's gotten more vocal in a good way about mental health stuff in the last few years. But he's just the nicest guy. He's so nice. And I just love hearing him and every time we get a chance to see each other, I just really liked that guy. So he's still one of my favorite artists. He was definitely, at the time, my favorite Duluth artist. He doesn't live in Duluth anymore, but he did for many years. And so I would go to all his shows and dance in the front and stuff, but still, he holds a huge soft spot for me. Oh, someday you should ask him. He's great. I bet he would do it. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Okay. Maybe connect me. Yeah, no, I have all kinds of musicians following all kinds of paths all over the world. It's a very broad thing. Yeah.
I wanted to ask about one of my favorite songs of yours. I just want to get the name right, Yeah. From your song, The Long Way Around, which is from your album you made in 2020 from your improvs, you did over Zoom. And I was curious how the lyrics fit in with, because people were giving you prompts and then you would make something up, but you have this beautiful poetry.
Gaelynn Lea:
Oh, well, that song, actually, it was performed live on that album, but that is a song I wrote maybe in the end of the beginning of 2019 or something. So I had already written it and figured out how to loop it live. And so that not, that wasn't an improv. Everything on the album that is instrumental, which is most of it, is an improvisation that was from a prompt. And so the name of the track is what the Improv was, but for The Long Way Around, and this Hunger Won't Leave, those were songs I had written not long before and had figured out how to loop. So sorry about the confusion, but I do, that song holds a place in my heart, like a deceptively simple song, but it has a lot of emotional charge for me. So I really like to sing it. It's a really fun one to do.
Leah Roseman:
It's absolutely one of my favorite love songs of all time. Really. Great.
Gaelynn Lea:
Oh, thank you. And it felt appropriate for that moment because I think when the world was going through so much, I mean, as we are now too, I think it's important. The immediate moment isn't always the end game. You know what I mean? And so in love or in friendship or in society, really. So the long way around holds a lot personal significance. For me, that phrase,
Leah Roseman:
This is a clip from the Long Way around (Music: clip The Long Way Around)
Yeah. And in terms of your instrumental tracks on the album, I particularly love the Dragons and Fairies one with all the tremolo.
Gaelynn Lea:
That was my favorite because it was so visual. What I would do during those pieces is just kind of picture stuff in my head while I played, and then I would play it on my violin. And that one really took on its own shape. There is a remix of it, which is really fun. My friend Jeremy and his son Max, really enjoyed it. So they added all this instrumentation underneath and asked if they could release it with me as a remix. I wasn't involved in them doing it. And that one's fun, too. It's got a little more instruments behind it. But yeah, that tune, I don't know which kind of came out of this picture in my head of these dragons and fairies. Yeah, I love improvising. I don't do a ton of it at my shows because I also don't want to make people feel like they're at a jam band concert. No offense to people who like those, but that's really not my style. But throwing one in here and there is really fun because it's such, and that album was unique because it was a time where I was like, I don't have that many songs. So to play a concert every week at my, or even three new songs every week, at a certain point, you're like, well, I got to have something different to play. So
Improvisations were a really fun way to kind of expand and try stuff that I like to do, but don't do very often live.
Leah Roseman:
This excerpt is from Dragons and Fairies.(Music: clip Dragons and Fairies from The Living Room Sessions)
Yeah. I started improvising during the Pandemic, and actually some of my earliest improvs literally were on the podcast playing back and forth with some of my guests. It was really
Gaelynn Lea:
Oh, fun,
Leah Roseman:
Fun. And since then, we've put together a band, and I have a couple of albums out, but especially for me being a classical violinist who plays an orchestra where everything has to be extremely precisely, it's just extremely freeing.
Gaelynn Lea:
Oh, yes. And that's how, that's the same path. In high school, I was very, very, very, very classical, but then I had a crush on a boy who played fiddle, and so he would bring me to these fiddle jams, and then you learn by ear, which, and I've always loved harmonies, just that's kind how I grew up. My family sang a lot. And so I realized you could kind of improvise harmonies to these fiddle tunes. And that was my beginning of my love with improvising. And then when I started joining folk bands, it was always improvised violin parts. And then with a looping pedal, it's like it expands that even farther what you can do. So if you have never looped, have you looped? I mean, it's a fun thing.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. A lot of people I've interviewed are really, really good at it. And I think, like you said about playing the erhu, it's just a whole other thing I'd have to learn and really devote myself to,
Gaelynn Lea:
Yeah, I mean, it's not easy, but you're not bad at it, even if you're bad at it at first. The truth is, it took me a good 18 months to want to even bring it out and play it places. It's really not the easiest thing to do, but it's a fun skillset. But I get what you're saying. It's like, do I have space in my brain for another thing at the moment? Maybe not.
Leah Roseman:
I was curious about, in terms of the fiddle tunes you've learned over the years in terms of growing up in Duluth, because I know things can be really regional and you play some Finnish tunes, is that part of your heritage, or is it like in the area?
Gaelynn Lea:
Zeitgeist, again, the boy I had a crush on went to this Finnish cooperative campground every summer, and they had a festival called Midsummer right around the solstice, and I would go with him. So there was traditional Finnish music there. That area, so is a mix of many Scandinavian things mostly. And then other stuff, English, Irish, all that stuff is kind of a melange here, but up in the Iron Range a little farther. Finnish is a more prominent, I'm myself, not Finnish, but it's a more prominent ethnic group or whatever. I mean, until recently, some of them would still speak it and stuff. So I loved that song. The first time I heard the accordion player play it, I was just like, oh my gosh. And so eventually, not right away, but a few years later, I taught it to a fiddle student who loved Scandinavian music. She was one of the, there's another song on my very first album, Halling from Ekshärad. I don't even know if I'm saying that right. But she wanted to learn that. So it was kind of fun. My fiddle students would teach stuff. I am Swedish though, so it was kind of fun to get into the Scandinavian tunes. She was really, that was what she wanted to do every week. That is technically, theoretically my musical heritage, even though I grew up learning more or not grew up, but came into music with more Celtic and traditional American tunes. So that is kind of the, and regionally we play at our little open session, more old time is, and then there's some Celtic ones, some Irish ones, but not a ton of Scottish ones. So it kind of is regional. I went to Edinburgh though with that Whippoorwill Fellowship and got to end the week, more than a month, it was a long tour. It was 10 cities and the time we were there in Edinburgh, and I got myself into a jam at the Sandy Bell, it's a little pub in Edinburgh. And the first night it was very clear, the lady leading, because different people lead every evening, and she was NOT into a random tourist sitting in. But then I think as I just kind of sat in the corner and played, and she didn't even look at me for a while there. And then eventually she was admitting the fact that I was going to be there. I was just like, you know what? I really want to do this. And there was the bartender said there was no, you can go jam. Yes, you can do that. And so I was there, and then finally, thank goodness some dude from Chicago was in the bar. And he is like, oh my gosh, you're Gaelynn from the Tiny Desk. And then she had to acknowledge that I existed. And so I played that night, and then I went back the next night to a more open jam. And then I went back two nights later. So I got to the jam in Edinburgh. And it's funny because the first night, and I think it was maybe her deterrent from me playing, she's like, oh, well, that's a American tune. Or if I would ask her what tune she knew. But then the next night when it was the more open, good natured vibe jam, and no offense to her, she ended up being cool. We ended up talking and I really liked her. But I think in that bar in particular, tourists sometimes just come in and take over, which is not what I was doing, but I can see that there's some hesitation there.
And so anyways, the more friendly jam, we know a lot of the same songs because they travel all over the world. They know one's from Canada and they know one's from America, and I know ones that they learned here, and it's really cool. I didn't expect that actually. I kind of thought I would go to a jam in Scotland and not know any of the songs. I don't know very many Scottish tunes. And it turns out it's just like this big melting pot of fiddle music. And that's literally how it is, because Edinburgh Jam, that's been going on for 30 years. If anyone was going to only know Scottish tunes, it would've been them. But they knew all sources of scenes. If you love fiddle, I think you just get drawn to the melodies and that's what you want to learn, basically. So they didn't know Scandinavian tunes, I will say that that was out of their repertoire, but all the other ones were kind of up for grabs. Everybody knew a lot of the same tunes, which was so cool. It was really fun. That was a highlight of the trip, I must say.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. A couple years ago you did a project with storyteller Kevin Kling, Invisible Fences. Do you want to talk about that?
Gaelynn Lea:
Yeah, yeah, that'd be awesome. So Kevin is a storyteller who lives in Minneapolis. He was on All Things Considered for a while as a commentator from time to time. And he's gone on to write a lot of plays and some books based on his storytelling. And he's done a lot. He's about 65 or something, so we're not quite the same generation. But he asked if, and we've played a few shows together where, I mean, we just did this at a festival, not the whole play, but we did a thing where he'll tell a story and then I'll play a song that kind of loosely relates to the vibe. So that's what I thought we were getting into. When he asked me, will you do this project with me? We had already done that a few times, and it was always really fun, but it was supposed to be a disability themed event. And so his vision originally was he would look up stories about disability, and then I would play a song. And the more research he did, all the fables about disabilities suck. So they are all terrible. The moral of the story is a hundred percent not what modern disability activists or even just humans of any persuasion would want to have told about their life story. And it's funny because sometimes it's hidden, it seems positive, and then you kind of unpack it and you're like, oh my God, what? This is horrible. So we kind of started feeling like at an impasse, and then we ended up having this really fun conversation where I was like, well, maybe we are starting to talk about, maybe we need to write our own thing then because this is not going to work. And I was like, well, have you ever felt? And I was like, and don't take this the wrong way, but kind of not human. It's true. My husband, and I, I mean, I do feel human by the way, on every normal level, but there is this part of me, this playful part that I feel sort of like a woodland creature that lives in a hole in a tree and likes to sleep in late and make music. And I don't know how to explain it. Some people, I know another little person who really loves the Hobbit and it's not, nobody's telling her to love that you do feel, especially when you're small like me, there's some part of you that is like, it's fun to imagine being a woman creature. And I don't know if everybody does this, I can't speak for anyone else, but it was a creature that Paul and I had already named. It was a Largroff, it was green, it had wings and the snout. And we had this whole thing already, and I told him about the largroff and he was like, oh, that's hilarious. I kind of know what you mean, but I think I would be a grasshopper. And I was like, why a grasshopper? And he kind of explained that he loves being part of a swarm and being part of a community because more of a solitary creature. And so anyways, we ended up writing this whole play like a full play about these two creatures, meeting and becoming friends. I wanted a backstory for the largroff that didn't set her apart too much. So sort of akin to my story, she's a platypus with a spontaneous genetic mutation, which is what my disability is, but makes her this kind of magical kind of creature, different than the other platypus. And she loves music and it makes her wings flutter. And that's sort of her backstory. And his backstory is he got separated from his swarm and to survive, he ate all these books in a library and digested them so he can quote anything, but he doesn't really know what it means because he's not a human. And so it's a hilarious premise. And we go on this big adventure and it touches on, I mean, he doesn't live grasshoppers live for a week once we're a grasshopper. And so it's kind of a touching story except for also very fantastical. And it was so cool. It's got to be one of my favorite things I've ever done because I mean, it really spoke to disability in a way that felt authentic finally really, really, this is what I want people to walk away thinking about. But also it was fantastical. So any age enjoyed it. There was a singalong, it was my music, and we put the songs, the songs I'd already written in the musical throughout. It's on YouTube so your people can watch it. But it was really fun. We've done it three times now and it sold out every time, which is pretty cool. And I hope we get to do it again, three different runs. So we've done it three times in Minnesota and we're always hopeful that maybe there's a way we can do it in another town or bring it back or whatever, because it just, it's very heartwarming. Ironically, the second time we did it was right after the election and it was very sad for us. I mean, I know not everybody was sad, but it was a healing kind of thing. The vibe, it's a very uplifting play, but not in an inspiration porn kind of way, but legitimately feels uplifting. And I got to say, you know how when you're onto something artistically or when something speaks to people, it's almost always because so much bigger than you could have made it yourself. There's something about that play that came together in a way that really feels like we're not the main drivers. And so both of us were like, how the heck did this? I mean, it was really fun. So yeah, I hope it's not the last time
We get to do it. It was really fun to see the audience connect and some people with disabled people came pretty much every night, but then it also resonates with anyone who sees it. So it was really fun. It would be fun to do again.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah,
Gaelynn Lea:
I know that's a really long answer. Sorry about that. But
Leah Roseman:
I will link that video in the show notes for people.
Gaelynn Lea:
Thank you.
Leah Roseman:
I know I'm mindful of your time, Gaelynn, so I wanted to get into a little bit more about disability rights activism. And you've met a lot of people and you continue to also even through your Zoom chats. And so a few questions. One thing is, because you grew up with this disability, do you think your mindset's a little differently than people who have had accidents or things have happened to them?
Gaelynn Lea:
Oh, for sure. Yes, a hundred percent. Yep. I think it's been good for me to meet people who have experienced different kinds of disabilities than me. I mean, it's been so good. I don't think you can really be an activist ultimately permanently without recognizing that your experience is only one of many. I think there's universal truth to disability behind the scenes. I think disability being a normal part of life is a message that I really wish was more embraced in our culture. But to say that we experience it the same is totally different. We were talking about disability pride on a really impactful for me panel and how disability can be a source of joy, which I mean, I do believe, and I think eventually most people get there if they process their disability, but one of the guys on the panel is a disabled artist who was paralyzed from an accident and he's like, I'm getting there.
But it wasn't, that is not how I felt at the beginning. And sometimes I still don't because he knows what it's like to have a different body. And I think we all have to travel that road to acceptance and maybe even celebration at a certain point on our own timeline and not be forced to pretend to love stuff. And the interesting part is, two things is I have anxiety and PTSD from some medical trauma. I would say in my life those have been harder for me to deal with. Now, accessibility is hard. So I am not going to pretend that lack of access isn't frustrating. But in terms of impacting my daily day-to-day life, I would say anxiety and A and PTSD have been harder and depression mental health stuff. And it doesn't mean I don't see myself as a full person, but I guess it would be harder for me to be like, and this is where that brought me joy.
You know what I mean? So I don't think it's good to put toxic positivity or whatever into disability, but I think what it is, and this is how I've always felt, is without these experiences, I wouldn't be myself. And I think at the end of the day, I am glad to be myself. And so to wish away part of even the harder stuff is not, I mean, everything is two sides of a coin. So the other thing is recently I got diagnosed with ADHD, and I will say, as much as I've done a lot of thinking and working about disability culture and disability pride, a lot of the messages you get around organization and stuff are pretty shame-based when it comes to if you have ADHD, so you don't feel great about a lot of the traits or whatever, the time management, blah, blah, blah.
And so even just recognizing your own limits of where you might have internalized some ableism and just kind of recognizing that and trying to root it out and move on to a better place with it is important. Again, with the two sides of every coin. Sure. If I hadn't been born with a disability, I probably would've been a dancer. I really love dancing. I'm pretty sure I can picture as parallel universe version of me that would've been really into dance. But I also think there's a lot of perspectives I wouldn't have that have made my life richer. And even that even really just that is to me enough reason to accept my disability. And I think most people who eventually do Kevin Kling, ironically, this guy we were talking about from the play, he was born with a limb difference on one side, but then when he was 40, he had a motorcycle accident and lost the use of his other arms. So now he is navigating life differently than he was used to. And I think his journey to disability pride has progressed and continues to progress. That's the other thing is we're never done. So I might think I feel a certain degree of excitement about disability culture now that feels revolutionary to me, but I'm sure that I'm not at the end points of where I will really embrace it. I think he is kind of made gradual strides. I think in writing Invisible Fences was good for him because I'm in a younger generation that has been told many different messages around disability than he was. So we had lots of really big hearts to hearts about what we think about our disabilities, and it was good for both of us, I think for me to understand that the older generation isn't coming from it in the same place.
They were always told different messages than I was, and that people who come into disability later in life also are going to have a different experience. So it's been a fun, I say fun, but I mean if you go into it with an open mind or try to have one on your good days or whatever, it helps, I think to ponder the possibility that disability has enriched your life in a way that has been helpful. But again, it's like everybody's got to do that on their own. One thing I do, and I will, I know I don't want to talk your ear off too much, but I do read a lot of, not just self-help, but spiritual Buddhism. I have a little daily devotional, a Hindu guy that I really like. It's hard to find ones that don't have negative messages. So maybe I'll give you the names of them and you can put 'em in the chat. These are ones that I've found that don't really focus on disability as bad because sometimes spiritual stuff goes into that. But I think keeping your mind on the bigger picture helps too,
Because I think everybody goes through challenges. Everybody does. There's people that you're like, oh, they had such a charmed life, and then you found out their dad was an alcoholic and beat 'em up, and they just don't talk about it. So I don't think disability is really any different. I think we're all going through struggles, and one way to keep your spirits up is just to zoom out into this bigger picture and take in things that are helpful rather than hurtful or depressing. You know what I mean? So that's a long rant, but I hope that answers your question a little bit.
Leah Roseman:
Well, there's always so much more to talk about, and I hope you can come on again. But thank you so much.
Gaelynn Lea:
That'd be fun. Oh, thank you for having me. Yeah, this was really fun. So thank you.
Leah Roseman:
I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please share this with your friends and check out episodes you may have missed at LeahRoseman.com. If you could buy me a coffee to support this series, that would be wonderful. I'm an independent podcaster and I really do need the help of my listeners. Keep in mind, I've also linked directly several episodes you'll find interesting in the show notes of this one. All the links are in the show notes. The podcast theme music was written by Nick Kold. Have a wonderful week.
