Agalisiga Mackey: Cherokee Language, Alive in Song

Below is the transcript of my interview with Agalisiga Mackey. This button link takes you to the podcast, video and show notes with all the other links!

Agalisiga Mackey:

But they were right. I mean, what are we doing with our language? It's been stagnant for too long, and it showed because we're losing more people that talk Cherokee. We're losing more people that know the cultural knowledge and means of doing things. We're losing those people way faster than we're making them. Part of my mission statement and the reason that I do what I do is to not just influence Cherokees, but anybody, and to inspire them to make things in their native language, whether it's music or film or podcasting or anything. Do it in your language and root it in your culture, and you'll probably be all right. We will probably make it through, but until then, I mean we're sitting ducks. We got to bring that language and that culture into the now or else it's going to be gone. It'll be too late.

Leah Roseman:

Hi, you’re listening to Conversations with Musicians, with Leah Roseman, which I hope inspires you through the personal stories of a fascinating diversity of musical guests. Agalisiga “The Chuj” Mackey is a Cherokee singer/songwriter from Oklahoma. His debut full-length country-folk album is entirely written, sung, and performed in theCherokee language, with producer Jared Tyler. You’ll be hearing several clips from the album, and you’ll find the link in the show notes. Agalisiga starting writing songs as vehicle to strengthen his knowledge of Cherokee, and he talked to me about the richness of this endangered language, including the syllabary, the importance of immersion schools and the urgent necessity of bringing the language and culture into the contemporary life of the community. He also spoke about the history of forced relocation, the negative impacts of the boarding schools, the Importance of upholding the traditional value of inclusivity, and also his musical influences. Like all my episodes, you can watch this on my YouTube channel or listen to the podcast on many podcast platforms, and I’ve also linked the transcript.It’s a joy to bring these inspiring episodes to you every week, and I do all the many jobs of research, production and publicity. Have a look at the show notes of this episode, where you’ll find all the links, including different ways to support this podcast!

Okay. So thanks for joining me today.

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Leah Roseman:

So I want to make sure I can call you Chuj, right?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah, absolutely.

Leah Roseman:

But your first name, the way you say it?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Well, my first name's Agalisiga

Leah Roseman:

Agalisig. Okay. I just want to, because it looks like Alisig-a when it's written. Okay.

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah. That's the full way of saying Agalisiga, but everyone just says "Agalisig".

Leah Roseman:

Okay. So your first album in English, "It started in the woods" how do you say it in Cherokee?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yes, it's called Nasgino Inage Nidayulenvi, yeah, and that's a rough translation for "It started in the woods".

Leah Roseman:

Yeah. It's so hard between languages, right? You can't always make a direct translation.

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty difficult, especially in Cherokee. There's a lot of English ideas that are really hard to, I guess, try to put in the language, and so it can be pretty difficult to translate even more simpler things like love, and that's one thing that we don't have the same idea for in Cherokee.

Leah Roseman:

Can you expand on that?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah, absolutely. So for Cherokees, we actually don't have a word for love. The closest thing that we say, especially to the folks that we're close to is gvgeyu'i" (syllabary: ᎬᎨᏳᎢ), which means that I'm stingy with your wellbeing, so it's what we use for love, or that I love you, but it's not exactly the same, but it's something that we use as a filler.

Leah Roseman:

I'm stingy with your wellbeing. I'm trying to understand, wrap my head around that

Agalisiga Mackey:

Stingy with your wellbeing. They usually use the example like a mother to their child, so it's more so I guess taking on that approach. It's like taking that person's wellbeing into account, even if they might not be doing things, I guess, on their behalf, whether they enjoy it or not, really, it's more so taking care of them.

Leah Roseman:

And I know you got to know Cherokee a lot better actually, through writing the songs on this album.

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah, a lot of these songs I started writing during my time in CLMAP, the Cherokee Language Master Apprentice Program. So I was doing a lot of learning throughout the day. It was my job, but in order to, I guess kind of keep track of those new words or new ideas that I was wanting to really get ahold of, I would put them in song. And they helped me, I guess, add these into my vocabulary and understand these, I guess for me, even though I grew up in this place and being a part of the culture, they were somewhat foreign to me still yet, and so I wanted to really get a grasp on those, and I wanted to put 'em in a way that I could come back to and I guess just keep practicing and maybe even do 'em in my sleep at some point.

Leah Roseman:

Yeah. So you work with kids. Are you finding creative ways for them to express themselves, to get to know the language as well?

Agalisiga Mackey:

I'm actually doing something else nowadays, but at that time I would specifically show them how to play a lot of their favorite songs. We didn't get too far into it, but I really wanted them to understand music and the power of not just music, art in general, and how that can further their own language and further their own need to gain knowledge about themselves and the culture. So a lot of them, even besides being through the classes that I teach, they already had interest in art and I guess showcasing who they are and what they know in their own way.

Leah Roseman:

Do you have any kind of memories from that? Was there performances the kids did or things that were unexpected without mentioning names, just

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, the first thing that comes to my mind is in Oklahoma here we have a language fair is what we call it. A bunch of the schools come from all over in Oklahoma, and they come to Oklahoma City and they do this exhibition or showcase, and a lot of our lessons kind of revolve around that later in the school year because we want to make sure that we showcase the dances and the songs that are culturally significant to us. And so a lot of the kids, it was really cool to see, at least for me, 'cause I went to this school and a lot of times when these things came up, these language fairs, we were not excited for them. But having these cultural aspects to them and showcasing the things that they do now, they were really drawn to it. They were really excited to participate. And so that was a beautiful change. I'm happy I got to be a part of that.

Leah Roseman:

So what's different for the younger generation in terms of the content?

Agalisiga Mackey:

I think more targeted cultural knowledge, things that we wanted to pass down to them, not just random things or things that happened out of happenstance, really. We wanted these kids to learn specific things, specific songs, dances, things that they could show. And then also beyond that, the real reason we taught them is so that they could just know them, do them at home, and that's who - they would become a part of them. And so we really wanted that to be, the goal is to not just have it as exhibition or to show off, but that's what these people do. That's what these children do, and that's what they'll continue to do. So it was, I think the targeted cultural aspects that we wanted to show these kids, they really gravitated to that and they loved it.

Leah Roseman:

So I think I checked with you before what I was hoping to do was edit in some either clips or full tracks from your album so people can hear and then link it so people can go over to your Bandcamp.

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah, no, that'd be awesome. A short clip is great.

Leah Roseman:

Okay.

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah, I mean, if they go to the Bandcamp, they can listen as much as they want.

Leah Roseman:

Could you talk about the first track on your album When I was a Boy?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So that song is the first personal song I wrote, and it was the second song I think I ever wrote. But that song, as the title implies, talks about when I was a boy. And I wanted to write this song, a lot of people that grew up the way that I did, and you kind of just have to be there and to experience that and to know the beauty of that, of course, very nature heavy. You got to be in your environment. And for a lot of Cherokees that's outdoors. And so I talk a lot about the connection that we have to water and to the natural cycles, fall, winter, summer, and all that stuff, and how they change. Also talk about, I guess the connection that we have with each other through our ceremonies and I guess through youth, children playing all over the place and including everybody, making sure that even Cherokees, even though someone might not be Cherokee, they're still allowed and included to be a part of what we do. That's a teaching of ours, and it's something that's kind of fading within our culture is that we're to include everybody no matter who they are. And I think that's something that's kind of fading, and that's something I really try to fight hard for, and that's why I put in the song because it matters, and that's kind of a basic building block to how a Cherokee is supposed to be in my eyes, and that's to take care of people and to love each other and include them. So that's kind of what the song talks about, I guess, the relationship with the land and the atmosphere and the seasons and people, most of all, and growing up being a Cherokee. (Clip When I was a Boy Tsitsutsa Tsigesv)

Leah Roseman:

Yeah. So you said you have a different job now?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yes. Yeah.

Leah Roseman:

What's your job now?

Agalisiga Mackey:

So now I still work in the language. I still work in the language department, but now I'm part of a team developing an app for the parents of the immersion kids, so that way they can, at least to some degree, learn what their children are learning in the school, more so geared for language. We definitely want to tie in culture and traditional childcare practices, but nowadays that's what I've been really focusing on is being a part of this team and creating this app for the parents.

Leah Roseman:

So is your role more cultural knowledge or some of the technical stuff?

Agalisiga Mackey:

It's more of the cultural and language knowledge. I don't know how to make anything like software wise. So a lot of what I do is finding specific, I guess, language subjects that the parents should know revolving around their child. That's what we're focusing on currently. It's going to grow and expand into so many different ways, more than we even know right now. But as of right now, we're really targeting the parents of young babies from six months to three years old. So they're going to be learning things like, I'm going to warm your bottle up, I'm going to change your diaper. Let's take a bath. Simple things like that. And then tying in the cultural knowledge would be things like doing ceremonial songs in the morning, whenever you wake up or whenever you go to bed, or certain ways you conduct yourself while you eat. So that's definitely stuff that we're trying to incorporate is those little things that are almost lost within our culture.

Leah Roseman:

What are the traditions around eating that you were mentioning?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Well, we have quite a few. One of 'em that stands out in my brain is don't sing at the table. If someone's cooked you a meal. Once that food has been prepared and is set on the table, it's considered rude to sing at the table. But there's more to it than that. It really ties into this idea of the spirituality behind food and associated with food. The person that cooks the meal naturally puts themselves into that and puts their own medicine and that kind of deal into the food that they produce. And so whenever you sing at the table or sing around the food without that person's consent, in a way, you kind of doctor their food and take out what they've done and take that part of them out, and you override what they've done for you. And so it's kind of rude in a simple way of saying it. It's rude. Hey, that's the big one.

Leah Roseman:

So in terms of the audience of my podcast at this point, about half of the listeners live in the US and half live really worldwide. Like a lot in Australia, a lot in England, and really all over the place. So a lot of people won't even be familiar with the history of the Cherokee nations and the Trail of Tears and the resettlement and all of that. So would you be willing to talk a bit about that and then the danger of the culture being lost?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah. So in the 18 hundreds, early 18 hundreds, Cherokees were forcefully relocated here to Oklahoma from North Carolina and Georgia. In different parts of the Northeast, we were considered a woodland tribe, and they were wanting a lot of the resources that our land and our homes were set upon. Specifically, they wanted silver and gold, and so they moved us out, like many other tribes. Whenever we got here, of course, it was tough. A lot of Cherokees passed away. They didn't make the trip, elders and children specifically, and that's usually pretty hard to talk about. So the forced relocation took a major toll on Cherokees for a very long time. It wasn't just something you spring back from. We had to get used to the land. We had to get used to the different climate. We had to rekindle our relationships, not just with your family or your friends. Those are the people you clung onto, of course, but you had to find yourself again, and it was really hard. So because of that, and still mingling with settlers and still trading and still being a part of the "new world", quote-unquote, we over time started adopting, I guess more modern customs. And we started, well, a lot of us became Christian, a lot of us started learning how to read in Cherokee and then into English.

And so it's something that, of course, it happens naturally. But in that happening, we started losing our more traditional side of ourselves, the things that have been passed down to us since the beginning. And currently, the thing that's in the greatest threat is our language. Of course, our culture is too in the things that we do, but our language is so key to who we are as Cherokee people. It would be catastrophic to lose that part of ourselves. And so a lot of people, especially in my generation, have been really wanting to rekindle that and make sure that the language carries on to the future generations.

Leah Roseman:

And for people who aren't living in North America, it's hard to imagine the distances. How far is it from the northeast to Oklahoma in terms of how far people walked?

Agalisiga Mackey:

I'm not exactly sure, actually. I know it's between and 800 and 900 miles. It's about 11 to 13 hour trip, depending on which way you go. Yeah, if you're driving, it took, they started moving them late summer, early fall, and it went through the winter, and that's what really got the people. That's what really kind of caused such heavy casualties on that trip was the cold and the climate. It was brutal. I can't imagine. I really can't. So it was an awful journey. It took months, it took a long time. It took a lot of energy, and most of the people being moved didn't eat very well. They didn't get fed well. They didn't sleep long. They didn't have resources needed to really make the trip. So it's a miracle that as many people made it as they did, it's pretty brutal to look back on and to read about.

Leah Roseman:

Yeah. So in terms of you learning Cherokee, the Elders as a sources of knowledge and your own parents as cultural leaders, do you want to talk to that a little bit?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah, so my mom starting out with her, her name's Donnie Squirrel, her group, her side of the family grew up in Kenwood, Kenwood, Oklahoma. It's about an hour east of Tulsa, up in the northeast corner of Oklahoma, I should say too. It's a little bitty Cherokee community. A lot of the people there are Cherokee. There's not a lot of other kinds of folk there, and most of the people are related. A lot of the people there talk Cherokee still, and they still go out and do cultural practices, go out, get crawdads and go get mushrooms and live off the land. And so my mom grew up that a way too. She didn't grow up speaking. Both of her parents are speakers. But something happened within my parents' generation where almost no language was passed down.

I believe it's because of the boarding school. The boarding schools that our ancestors went through. They were pretty bad. They were pretty bad for people and for Native folk. And I think our ancestors going through that and my great grand folks, and that leaking down to my grand folks, then onto my parents. The language just slowly deteriorated until at some point it hit my parents and it wasn't passed down. It was viewed as obsolete or even worse, something that would hurt you, that would come back and bite you if you knew your language and if you knew your culture. So my parents didn't get it.

My dad, his family is from Twin Oaks, Oaks and Kenwood, which is also all in the northeast part of Oklahoma, about an hour east of Tulsa too. But his group moved up north of Tulsa, about an hour and a half or two into Osage country, and his group started cowboying for the Osage. And so he really didn't get the language. His grandpa spoke, but his parents didn't speak, my grandparents didn't. My grandma on that side didn't speak, I should say. And so over time, we kind of lost that part of ourselves on that side of the family. So they say, if you ever hung out with my family, you'd see that they're in some way a very classic Cherokee family. In other ways, they've grown up far away from it, and they're kind of 50 50 in a way, but you can still definitely see the Cherokee in them.

And so my folks came from different backgrounds, but they both were kind of in similar shoes where they didn't have the language, and a lot of the culture was either passed down in a way that was different than what it was before, or it wasn't passed down at all. And whenever my folks met, they decided that they wanted to, I guess, search for that and find that within them and find that knowledge of the culture and the language, and then really to give it to me, and so I could have it naturally as best as I could. And so they went to language classes, they went to ceremonial grounds, they hung out with cultural folks that were very influential, not just on my parents, but on a lot of people. And so they really wanted to, I guess, embrace that and find that and give that to me and show that it can be done for other people.

Leah Roseman:

How your grandparents felt about your parents learning the language and the culture, like if they had a reaction against it?

Agalisiga Mackey:

No. No, no.

Leah Roseman:

Okay.

Agalisiga Mackey:

No, they didn't have a reaction against it. I don't know if they really had an opinion. I think they were pretty indifferent. My mom grew up with a lot of the culture and doing stuff, and it was a little different than what it was before, but she still had it, you know. I think on her end, I think it was just another day. I don't think her folks really gave it a thought. On my dad's side, I'm sure my grandma was very excited because they're Cherokee, but like I said, they moved up north and left their community.

And so that's something that she was always proud of was being a Cherokee. My grandpa, he, I'm sure he was supportive. He is not Cherokee, but he grew up with a lot of Cherokees, and of course, he married my grandmother. And so he's very open to what we do, what Cherokees do, and how they talk and how they go about life. He participates actually, even whenever me and my wife got married, we had a ceremonial dance to celebrate that, and he was out there and he was having a ball. He was having a good time.

Leah Roseman:

So when you submitted for the Tiny Desk competition and you didn't win, but you were a standout submission and you got some attention, which is actually how I found out about you.

Agalisiga Mackey:

Oh, cool. Yeah.

Leah Roseman:

So what was that like?

Agalisiga Mackey:

It was really cool. I've never done anything like that. I don't usually put myself out there. Before I started doing all this music stuff, I usually kept to myself if I could. So I guess kind of throwing myself out in this giant competition, and I think there were like 7,000 people or something like that, five or 7,000. And I didn't know what I was getting myself into. I really didn't. But the process, once I finally got in there, it was life-changing for me. It was a very positive experience, and I want to do it again. I was going to do it this year, but I had a baby, and I am a family guy. I really like to hang out with my family, and I am a homebody, so I didn't want to put time into that. I would rather spend time with my family. And so, funny enough, my wife is actually the person that keeps my head on straight and keeps me pushing and going in the direction that I need to. She's the one that really got me talked into doing this and got me applied. And it was, without her, I wouldn't have done it. I really don't think. I would've don't even know if I would've known about it. I grew up listening to NPR, but I didn't know anything about Tiny Desk.

I guess I just spent too much off my phone, too much time off my phone. But it was awesome. And the gist of it all, it was really awesome, and I want to do it again. I think this next year I will.(Music: clip of "Daganigisi" I’m Gonna Leave)

Leah Roseman:

Yeah. For people that missed it, you were featured on Weekend Edition. They did an interview with you. Yeah. So what I find actually very beautiful about Cherokee is the symbols, the syllables.

Agalisiga Mackey:

Oh, yeah.

Leah Roseman:

So what's his name, Sequoyah that he did?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah, we got some back here.

Leah Roseman:

Yeah, so it's a very cool story. Do you want to tell that?

Hi, just a really quick break from the episode. I wanted to let you know about some other episodes I’ve linked directly to this one, which I think may interest you, with Chuck Copenace, Omo Bello, Jean Rohe, and Bukhu Ganburged. In the show notes you’ll also find a link to sign up for my newsletter, where you’ll get exclusive information about upcoming guests, a link for my Ko-fi page to support this project directly, where you can buy me one coffee, or every month, and my podcast merchandise store with a design commissioned from artist Steffi Kelly. You can also review this podcast, share it with your friends, and follow on your podcast app, YouTube, and social media. All this helps spread the word! Thanks. Now back to my conversation with Agalisiga.

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah. What I know is that, of course, Sequoyah is the one that created the syllabary, and it took him quite a few years. It wasn't just overnight, but he noticed that the settlers came in and they had their own writing system for their languages, and they could write to each other, and he saw that, and he wanted to be able to do that and Cherokee and write letters in Cherokee. And so Sequoia developed the syllabary. It started out as kind of this curvy looking stuff, but in order to put it on printing presses, they had to make the shapes a little more simpler. And so that's the stuff that we mostly use now. The writing system that we use now is what we call the new Syllabary. Nobody really writes in the old syllabary anymore. I know how to write my name, and that's about it. I want to learn more about it. But it's hard. It's tough. I see why they couldn't put that on a printing press. But anyways, the Syllabary is used quite a lot within our immersion schools. It was the first language I learned how to write in, actually, at the immersion school, it was kind of different writing in English whenever it came time, but because of how complicated Cherokee is and how many characters there are, and you're not really writing, it really feels like you're drawing characters rather than writing them. It was tough at first to start writing in English, but it was pretty easy to get the hang of.

Leah Roseman:

So for people that aren't clear, so syllabary, literally, they're syllables rather than, like a whole syllable of a word. So I understand it's actually easier for people to learn because it's more consistent. English is not consistent the way we write it, it's kind of a nightmare.

Agalisiga Mackey:

So each syllable follows the sound that we make in Cherokee. The syllabary here in Oklahoma is just slightly different than the one in Cherokee, North Carolina. They have a sound that they don't use, and so I'm pretty sure they chop that whole line from their chart usually. But that's a sound that we still use over here. And so it's in our chart. I know some words like we would say (Cherokee) they say (Cherokee), and so I think it might be (Cherokee) those kind of spitty sounds, but I'm not sure. I really can't say. I haven't broken down into it very much. But the syllabary follows each sound.

Leah Roseman:

So this is the early 18 hundreds, so it was quite a long time ago, right?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah.

Leah Roseman:

So what I read is then that the Cherokee people were much more literate than the settlers at the time because most people weren't reading and writing English. So it actually made, it was very good. It probably saved your language more than other Indigenous languages because it was written.

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah, I believe so. Yeah. I think Sequoyah's fascination with writing was shared amongst all of our people that saw them writing, saw the settlers writing, I should say. And so a lot of Cherokees learned how to read and write very fast once that was established and developed. So I guess it's something that's been carried through to now, even so a lot of people don't know how to talk Cherokee, but they can read and write it what words that they do know, or they could read a story and not understand anything that they read, but they can read it. So I think it's something that we still are fascinated by.

Leah Roseman:

So I am interested to hear some of the different sounds in Cherokee from English.

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah. Well, one of them, like I stated, was the (Cherokee) sound. In phonetics, it's a tl, and then you just add whatever vowel you got at the end. Like TLA is tla, and tla actually means no. So if someone's trying to hit on you and you don't like them, you say tla, just throw your hand up, tla. But that's one sound. There's a lot of words.(Cherokee) There's a bunch of words that have tla or tli, gi-tli means dog. There's a lot of words that have that sound. I know it's pretty distinct. Another sound that we have is (Cherokee) It is spelled TSA. A lot of folks nowadays say it like a JA, or they'll say jaw like a jawbone. I think traditionally it was more of a dza . It's more on the tip of your tongue, and that's why it's a Ts rather than a jaw that's used quite a bit. (Cherokee) , there's a lot of words that have that . It's a common sound. Those are the two that are very different. I'm sure I could think of more, but those are the two that really stick out in my brain.

Leah Roseman:

So do you have some favorite Cherokee expressions?

Agalisiga Mackey:

I'm not sure. I don't think I do per se. I just like throwing anything out there. I mean, we like to joke. So usually a lot of it is kind of tagging onto what someone has already said. One of 'em, it's (Cherokee), which is like, you know it, but usually it's like, there's a lot of context that's used for in jokes. I'm trying to think of a clean one. I guess the situation would be someone says something like, oh man, that's so gross. I don't see how anybody could do anything like that. And I was like, (Cherokee) It's like, oh, only you would know that.

And so it's kind of taking digs at people, and there's a bunch of 'em that are like that. Another common one is it's just something that people say, I don't even really know how to translate it, but (Cherokee), and that's kind of like, I'll be, I'll be dang. Or Are you serious? It's kind of just saying something and disbelief almost. And maybe in disbelief in someone's actions or something that they've said or a situation people will say (Cherokee), which is kind of like saying, I can't believe you, or really dude or (Cherokee) that kind of thing. So those are some common ones that people just usually throw in.

Leah Roseman:

So in terms of musical style, so who were you listening to growing up?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Oh, golly. I listened to a little bit of everything growing up. I think the ones that influenced me the most in my music that I make would be folks like Bob Wills and the Outlaw crew, like Waylon Jennings and Merle and Willie, of course, I like to listen to a lot of older stuff. My grandpa, he's a two stepper, so he likes to listen to dance tunes, those old boot scootin's. And I like to listen to a lot of that older country western swing stuff with him, and my dad. My dad, he listened to all that same kind of stuff. He had his own kind of music he liked. He liked a lot of metal and alternative and rock. But my mom going back to country, she's the one that did a lot of the Waylon and the Merle and the Willie, and those are the kind of folks that I grew up listening to. And my own time though, I found a lot of artists that I really, I guess I can't say relate to, but just really enjoyed their style. One of 'em was Jimmy Rodgers. I found him in high school, and he's the grand pappy of country music. And so I got really sick into his music, and he wrote things like, of course, all the blue yodels, he wrote In the Jailhouse Now, he wrote a lot of those kind of songs that a lot of people cover. They cover nowadays, sorry, my English is getting way worse nowadays, but Jimmy Rodgers was someone that inspired me quite a bit whenever it came time to start writing. In fact, the first song I wrote was heavily inspired off of a Jimmy Rodgers, well style, I can't say one song. I really wanted to pay tribute to him and his position and country music. And so the first song I wrote was a Jimmy Rodgers inspired song, and that song is called Gatlohiha . It's pretty much a Jimmy Rodgers song in Cherokee. It means I'm crying.(Music: clip of Gatlohiha (I’m Crying)

I'm kind of basing it off of his blue yodels. He has blue yodel, one to 10, one to 11, something like that. And they're all yodelly. He yodels in all of them, and they're all very bluesy. They're all built on a traditional blues style. I mean, country music is just rooted in the blues. It's not even funny. And so I really clung to that and enjoyed it quite a bit growing up.

Leah Roseman:

That song of yours, you mentioned, I really enjoyed it. It was one of the ones I took notes on, and I was wondering maybe if you could reflect how music helps with emotions or feelings of loneliness or sadness.

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah, yeah. No, that's a great song to talk about for it too. I wrote that in COVID, and so I mean, all of us were isolated and hunkered down. I wrote that with my dad, me and my dad. We sat down on the couch one evening and we cranked it out in about two, three hours. And it's a pitiful little song. It's a very sad song. It talks about loneliness to t, but that's just the kind of music that they wrote back in the day. And I thought it was fitting to write about it in that time during COVID time of isolation and a lot of sorrow. Truthfully, it was a hard time for most folk. And so I wrote a song to reflect that feeling. The theme of it talks about this guy who has this woman that he really loves and that he's been made a better person by her. But when she drinks, she cheats on him. And he's pretty much had enough of that. And so he goes out and he finds the guy that she's been cheating with, and he shoots 'em and says, you're going to wind up in a black box buddy. And the last verse, the whole time, I'm yodeling throughout. See, I even talk about it like it's a Jimmy Rodgers song, but the last verse talks about him running away and going to Mexico and knowing that he might've escaped for now, but whatever he's about to arrive to, it's not going to be any better. Wherever he's going in Mexico, it'll catch up to him. So that's kind of the gist of it. Very lonely, very sorrowful.

Leah Roseman:

I can't remember when this happened, but some Maori people visited. They influenced in terms of saying to express your language with sort of more contemporary stuff, right?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah, so the Maori, they seen what we was doing as Cherokees. They came and visited us and we were showing them all around the nation. And at some point they were like, where's your media? Where's your music? Where's your life in the language? You guys are still stuck in the twenties and where's the production? And we didn't really have anything to show. I mean, they caught us, and it hurt. It was a rude awakening, but they were right. I mean, what are we doing with our language? It's been stagnant for too long, and it showed because we're losing more people that talk Cherokee. We're losing more people that know the cultural knowledge and means of doing things. We're losing those people way faster than we're making them. And I mean, they called us out, and I'm grateful that they did. And so part of my mission statement and the reason that I do what I do is to not just influence Cherokees, but anybody, and to inspire them to make things in their native language, whether it's music or film or podcasting or anything. Do it in your language and root it in your culture, and you'll probably be all right. We will probably make it through. But until then, I mean, we're sitting ducks. We got to bring that language and that culture into the now or else it's going to be gone. It'll be too late.

Leah Roseman:

So when you released your album, what were the reactions from different generations within your community?

Agalisiga Mackey:

To be honest, I was expecting the worst. I didn't know if anybody would like it. I knew it was different, and I knew, as far as I knew, nobody else had released a Cherokee album without being featured on something or coming from hymns or traditional music even. This was the first contemporary album done by just one group and a team with a purpose in a way. So I was kind of anxious to see what people thought. I didn't know what people were going to think on any generational level. Overall, though, everybody's loved it and has uplifted the music and uplifted me, and most of all, uplifted the language and the culture because they're tied in together. And so I was really grateful for the reception that we got for this. And I was really anxious at first. I had no clue what people were going to say, but once they got to listen to it, I think, I mean, I haven't heard anything bad about it, and I don't know if anybody, whoever say anything about it to my face or what, but I ain't heard nothing bad about it. So I'm grateful for that.

Leah Roseman:

So I'm curious. Maybe some of the younger people hadn't really listened to Country Western, but then they're interested. You know what I mean?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah. I think a lot of the music I wrote for the older generation, and that's the stuff that I like to listen to and the stuff I like to play. So it was kind of in my wheelhouse. And I wanted to write music for the folks that talk Cherokee, and that's mostly our elders now. But I think our youth isn't that much different than our elders. I mean, they grew up listening to that same stuff because I made that music for their grandpa, and they're listening to Bob Wills with their grandpa. So I mean, a lot of the youth, me kind of already grew up listening to country, maybe not Western Swing, that might be a little older, but most of 'em enjoy it. Of course, a lot of the kids that I taught, they have their own genres that they like to listen to. But everybody likes country around here. I mean, that's the thing. Everybody loves a country tune.

Leah Roseman:

And you have some great collaborators on this album. So maybe do you want to talk about Jared Tyler? He also produced the album and he plays Lap Steel, I think.

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. So there, there's so many people that got a credit for this, would've never done this by myself. It's hard for me to believe anybody that could say that they do this by themselves. There's no way. There's no way. This is so tough. It takes a team. It takes a community and people that believe just as much as you do. And one of the first people I ever met that believed was my wife. She is the one that kept me going, especially at home. There'd be times where I didn't really want to write or that I didn't even really want to play guitar or just didn't have that energy. But if I ever did, she was always supportive and made sure that I had that space. And I would come to her and I'd be like, it'd even be things like, dude, I don't know how to rhyme this word with that. What do you got?

And she would help me, but she also pushed me along on the paperwork side and the technical side. She has a brain for that that I'll never understand, and it's incredible. She believed in me from the get, like you said, Jared Tyler. I mean, I met him through our mutual friend named Jeremy Charles, who's the one that got me involved in everything. I don't, would don't even know if I would've song wrote without Jeremy Charles pushing me and having me on that on Anvdvnelisgi ᎠᏅᏛᏁᎵᏍᎩ album. But through Jeremy Charles in that album, I met Jared. And Jared produced that first album, the Anvdvnelisgi ᎠᏅᏛᏁᎵᏍᎩi album, and he's the one that cut my song for that. And so I want to cut my record. And at that point, I played shows with him and befriended him quite well, and he's my buddy. And so I wanted him to be the person that made this album what it was for me. I wrote the songs and I put my voice to him, but Jared's the person that took those Lego pieces that I pumped out, and he built them into the beautiful work of art that it is. And so I'm privileged that he did that.(Music: clip of Dvkiyohiselvi (I Shall Be Released)

Leah Roseman:

The first album you're referring to is a compilation, right?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah, yeah. So the first album, another cat I want to mention is Brian Horton. He did my album, but he also did this first album with Jeremy that they collabed on it. And it was a compilation album of all kinds of songs, all kinds of genres in the Cherokee language. I got picked to do the country one, and Jeremy Charles reached out to my dad, actually, they was working on a project together and asked if I would do the country song for this collaboration album. And I was hesitant at first. I really was. But I thought to myself, who else is going to do it? There's a reason why it hasn't been done yet, because nobody's going to do it. I felt like I was filling shoes that were way too big for me, but I guess someone had to do it, and I thought I'd give it a try at least. And I think it came out pretty good. I had a good time, and it got me going, and it stirred a fire in me that's still burning red hot, and I still song right in Cherokee, and it's still a passion of mine for sure.

Leah Roseman:

Now, your wife, her first language was Spanish, right?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah, that in English. So her folks, they talk Spanish and my wife talks Spanish. The only reason I am hesitant to say that is because I don't think she, she speaks Spanish. She speaks Spanish really good. I don't know why she says honestly. But yeah, she spoke Spanish and English growing up. She grew up speaking English more. I think that's probably why she would say that she's more fluent in English, but she can still talk Spanish. And so yeah, she grew up in a different way that I know of growing up, but also a very special, unique way.

Leah Roseman:

So is she learning Cherokee and are you learning Spanish?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah. Yeah. She works in the language department. Actually. She teaches babies in Cherokee, and she won't like me saying this either. I think she's about to lap me and Cherokee. I really do. She's doing right, good, way better than I am. And so my Spanish is slow because I'm still learning Cherokee as she is. But you're immersed in it all day here, and so it's hard to escape Cherokee. But I mean, I downloaded Babbel. I try to use what Spanish I can with our kiddos, and it's really nice too, because her folks are there. So I, I'm like, man, how do you say this? I have people to practice with that actually can converse. It's different talking to them than my three-year-old. He could converse pretty good, actually, but it's different.

Leah Roseman:

I used Babbel for Spanish. I thought it was a good app for that.

Agalisiga Mackey:

Yeah, I was really shocked because I can't imagine learning Cherokee through an app, which is funny. My job now just developing that. And so I wanted to see how people learn language through apps and online. And so I downloaded Babbel partially to learn Spanish, but also I wanted to see how it's even done. And I wanted to, I guess, find ways to do that for Cherokee. I have no clue. I'm like, I can't even imagine. But I got to imagine because I got to make it happen, and so I'm really excited for it.

Leah Roseman:

So one thing I was wondering about in terms of let's say powwows and ceremonial things, is that being modernized, is there a place for you to sing your songs at that kind of celebration or not?

Agalisiga Mackey:

Well, that's a good question. I hate to say it. A lot of our ceremony and culture isn't being brought in to the now. It's only really in this building, in this school where any of that's being passed down in our actual communities. It's dying. It's really dying, and we're trying to find ways of having that cultural outreach and maintaining that and building it. But it's been tough. A lot of our ceremonial grounds and our ceremonies in general are not close to the public by any means. They're all supposed to be open. But I mean, good luck finding them and good luck finding people that are willing to tell you what it's about nowadays. I mean, they're deep in the woods and most people don't like to talk about it because for a long time it was illegal to even do ceremonial stuff as a Cherokee. And there's a lot of that fear still instilled within us, even if I never grew up with it being illegal. But there's people that remembered that they don't want to talk about what they do. I imagine in their head they're probably like, what if happens again? You know what I mean? I don't want them to come here and arrest my family for doing what they do. And so it's not something that's really talked about outside of here, and I think it's changing, but we got to quicken the pace of it because deteriorating faster than it's being built. And that's scary.

Leah Roseman:

Well, thanks so much for sharing this with us. Is there anything you want to talk about that I didn't ask you about?

Agalisiga Mackey:

No, no. I just always leave off with a mission statement. Usually I'll do it in Cherokee first. (Cherokee) pretty much what I just said. Sometimes I add more, sometimes I don't. But that just says, learn y'all's languages. (Cherokee) and that means whatever you guys do culturally speaking, you have to learn and to keep that going. And that's the reason I do what I do, is to try to keep a hold of what's been established and create new things and to keep it relevant and alive.

Leah Roseman:

Thank you so much.

Agalisiga Mackey:

Thank you. Wado.

Leah Roseman:

I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please share this with your friends and check out episodes you may have missed at LeahRoseman.com. If you could buy me a coffee to support this series, that would be wonderful. I'm an independent podcaster and I really do need the help of my listeners. Keep in mind, I've also linked directly several episodes you'll find interesting in the show notes of this one. All the links are in the show notes. The podcast theme music was written by Nick Kold. Have a wonderful week.