Ashley Kahn on “Days of Miracle and Wonder: Paul Simon and the Trials and Triumphs of Graceland”
This transcript is linked to the podcast, video, and show notes.
Ashley Kahn:
Philip Glass, to David Byrne, to Lenny Waronker at Warner Brothers, to Laurie Anderson, Cyndi Lauper. Various stars of the 80s, various musical heavyweights, especially of the New York scene, would be invited in. And what Paul would do is play the rhythm track, and because he hadn't recorded his vocals yet, he would stand really close to the person and sing into their ear. Paul's a pretty quiet singer, but believe me, he did that to some people who were not expecting it. And I can't tell you how just surprising that must have been to suddenly have Paul Simon speaking straight into your ear and singing the lyric. But that's what he would do. And so I can see why Lorne would believe in this and say, "Okay, let's book this group." He'd see pictures or maybe there was video because there were video cams by then of Lady Smith Black Mambazo and play it for him.
Leah Roseman:
Hi, you're listening to Conversations with Musicians, with Leah Roseman, which I hope inspires you through the personal stories of a fascinating diversity of musical guests. Ashley Kahn is a Grammy winning music historian, author, professor, and producer. He joins me to discuss his wonderful new book, "Days of Miracle and Wonder: Paul Simon and the Trials and Triumphs of Graceland". You'll hear about Joseph Shabalala and Ladysmith Black Mambazo with whom Ashley toured, and many of the musicians who helped define the Graceland sound, including Bakithi Kumalo, Ray Phiri, producer Ray Halee, and insights into Paul Simon's songwriting process. You'll hear Ashley read several excerpts from the book and reflect on how Graceland, the album, and later as a touring project, affected the musicians living under apartheid, and also those in exile like Hugh Masekela. He also speaks about several of his other projects, including his books about the music of Thelonious Monk and John Coltrane, and as co-writer of Carlos Santana's award-winning autobiography, "The Universal Tone, Bringing My Story to Light".
A recipient of many awards and honors, Ashley has a broad and fascinating career in the music industry and is a professor at the Clive Davis Institute of Recorded Music at NYU TISCH. In the show notes, there's a small gallery of pictures, so you might want to check those out. Please note, like all my episodes, you can also watch the video on my YouTube or listen to the podcast and I've linked the transcript. It is a joy to bring these inspiring episodes to you and I do all the many jobs of research, production, and publicity. So have a look at the show notes of this episode on my website where you'll find all the links, including the book and Ashley's other work, different ways to support this podcast and other episodes you'll enjoy.
Hey Ashley, thanks so much for joining me here today.
Ashley Kahn:
Great to be here, Leah. Thanks for having me on.
Leah Roseman:
I so enjoyed your new book and I'm hoping we'll really focus the conversation on that, but you've done so much. I'm hoping we can get to quite a few other projects as well as a deep dive into this one, "Days of Miracle and Wonder: Paul Simon and the Trials and Triumphs of Graceland". So I'm old enough that I was, my late teens, I think I was beginning of university when Graceland came out and I listened to it all the time. I bought the LP and then it got me into some other African music as well. I was one of those people that really affected my listening habits.
Ashley Kahn:
That's great.
Leah Roseman:
It was amazing to revisit it. And I did quite a few road trips this summer and I found I just kept listening to it over and over again. And the 25th anniversary version of it, people can hear some cool outtakes. We can talk about that later.
Ashley Kahn:
Sure.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. But it was interesting to me. I got to the end of the book and in the afterward you talk about your personal connection with Ladysmith Black Mambazo. So maybe can we start there?
Ashley Kahn:
Sure, sure. It's interesting that we're starting with that because that was one of the things that my editor at Atria wanted me to open with. And I said, "It just doesn't feel right. I want to tell the story of an album here." And of course Paul is the main player, but it's really the story of a recording and how it sat in the world and the impact, the incredible impact that it had on a global level. And that I didn't want to distract from that story by inserting the first person anywhere. And so you don't have the first person anywhere until the very end, the Afterward. And that's when I do the reveal and say, "Well, I actually witnessed this moment that I'm describing, this incredible, the spirit of the day, the opening of the doors to African music that was kind of flooding in to the point that African music was actually normal.
It was to be expected as far as bands performing, as far as groups that were on the road and performing around the States, but also on the radio and college radio, alternative radio, and even pop radio. There were these sounds of Africa and this idea that it was a moment of planetary connection that seemed so opposite to the point that we're in these days.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. So when I got to that point and I read about your personal connection, I immediately thought that, well, I get why he didn't start with it. It does make sense. But you were tour manager for that group in 1988. And on the back of this book, there's this Graceland Reunion tour. Is that the 1989 one?
Ashley Kahn:
That's not the reunion tour. That's the first tour. That's from 1987 before they. I've got the book here too. That's them in London before they even played their first gig. So I really wanted something special on the back cover. And I think I talk about it, but it's kind of buried on the credits page or something. But the idea that that was even before they had first performed the music live, first date was in Rotterdam and they rehearsed it, put the show together in London.
Leah Roseman:
Okay. So when did you first go to South Africa?
Ashley Kahn:
I had been there years before because this is another kind of happenchance link to the whole story. My father's from Cape Town, and so I still have relatives down there and I had been there and we actually had a copy of Ladysmith Black Mambazo album, Amabutho, the very first one that they recorded in the house in Cincinnati, Ohio. It might as well have been from Mars for all the kind of awareness that I had of this group. No internet to go to, to figure out who they are or what their story was and no liner notes on the album either. And years later I kind of look back and go, well, sometimes it feels like someone else is writing your story. Well, that's how I connected with this too.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. It's interesting you say about liner notes because you've actually won a Grammy for liner notes, which is amazing that that's recognized. I didn't even know that was a thing.
Ashley Kahn:
Yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah, they don't announce that on the TV show.
Leah Roseman:
Well, my husband was actually born in South Africa, so I have a bit of a family connection there. So do you have memories of Joseph Shabalala? I mean, you must have known him.
Ashley Kahn:
Oh man. Very, very deep and meaningful memories. I would say that my life definitely took a hard left turn as a result of my being hired to tour manage Ladysmith Black Mambazo. By the way, this is at a point where the Graceland glow has taken place and Ladysmith is kind of off and exploring the world for the first time ever. Apartheid is still a thing. It's still the height of all this violence and uncertainty as to what the future holds for this whole country. There wasn't anyone who wasn't convinced at that point that the country was sitting on a powder keg. And so the only question was when was it going to go off? And the fact that this music was so vibrant, so life affirming, so positive, and traveling the world countered that in the most hopeful way. So that was the picture that I entered into.
So the first Graceland tour had already happened. And so taking them around, strangers in a strange land, half of the group didn't speak English well enough to even negotiate on their own as far as anything beyond buying a stick of gum or something like that. That was how I stepped into it. So realizing that the man leading this group and that had founded the group was a zen master in the way he was handling the difficulties of navigating between the West and going back home to Apartheid South Africa. There was just this deep spiritual center to this individual. I actually have a picture of the two of us. Hang on. This is from, if you can see that, that's the two of us in about 1988 or 1989 in Kwazulu, South Africa. I had gone back to South Africa both to see family there, but also for the wedding of one of the members of Mambazo and officiating was of course Joseph Shabalala.
So that's me and him from back in the happy days.
Leah Roseman:
You'll be hearing Ashley read from his book, "Days of Miracle and Wonder: Paul Simon and the Trials and Triumphs of Graceland".
Ashley Kahn:
Simon put a positive spin on the reception of Hearts and Bones, but his disappointment with the album went beyond sales. He disliked the sound of some of the recordings, upset that a few of the compositions, not all, but some, had not been fully realized in the studio. "I really though the songs were better than the tracks and I was very frustrated," he admitted. "When it was over, I said, I don't want to go through that again. With that realization came a plan. I said," I'll make a track that I like and then I'll write the song and if I don't like the song, I'll erase it, but the track is still there. I've been writing songs since I was 15. I knew how to write a song once the track existed."
Paul was in the right frame of mind then for his encounter with the music of South Africa. Listening to Gumboots offered an opportunity for this idea new to him of song building to flourish from the music up. Nevermind record label obligations or career concerns, nevermind domestic distractions or other personal worries. All that fell away as he followed his instincts, guided more by feeling than careful plan. "Does your best work come from active conscious thinking about what a song should say?" He was asked in 1990. He negated that idea right off saying," In fact, I consciously try not to think what a song should say because what I'm interested in is what I find as opposed to what I'm planning. I'd like to be the audience too. I'd like to discover what it is that's interesting to me. I'd like to discover. I'd like to discover it rather than plot it out."
Leah Roseman:
Most of the listeners of this podcast are going to be listening to the audio only version. So what I can do in the show notes, I can have a small gallery if there's any images you have the rights to like personal photos.
Ashley Kahn:
Yeah, sure. Happy to share that.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Okay. And the name Mambazo, can you speak about what. I was interested to find out about the singing competitions.
Ashley Kahn:
Yeah, sure. No, I'd be happy to. Let me just say that the context here, Ladysmith Black Mambazo was kind of an anomaly. They had had radio hits. They were very popular in both Black and white South Africa because of the connection to the roots. They're representing this rich vocal tradition out of the Zulu area, which is the southeast part of the country called Isicathamiya. And it includes not only very tightly coordinated vocal harmonies, but tightly coordinated dance steps too. I mean, that was a big part of their show. And Joseph had a vision of these different kind of melodies and different harmonies. So it was kind of an offshoot of this, and they had become very, very popular and were actually touring outside of South Africa even before Paul got with them in 1985.
The music that they did was 10 part harmony, seven bass voices and three tenors, and one who was kind of a contralto who could go up into high parts. And acapella, no band, easiest load in I ever had as a tour manager. We'd walk in with their costumes and that's it. And they were, of course, as I said, kind of establishing themselves, their own name separate from Paul Simon. And then we would weave back into the Graceland dates and then go off and do our solo dates. The name Ladysmith, Ladysmith is a town in KwaZulu in that area of South Africa. Black was chosen both because of who they are, but also it's the color of the strongest oxen on the farm, the ones that you both wanted to use when you needed that beast of burden, but also who you wanted to be careful around and you didn't want to rile them up or get them angry.
And Mambazo is the ax, and it's the ax with which the Isicathamiya tradition is one of a lot of competitions, vocal competitions, dancing competitions. And so the idea that you're going to hue down your competition,
Hence the name Ladysmith Black Mambazo.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I was interested to read about those competitions thinking of the brutality these men were living under Apartheid. They couldn't be with their families. They were living in kind of barracks, right?
Ashley Kahn:
Yeah. The barracks that you're referring to are usually associated with the gold mines closer to Johannesburg. And this would draw up, I mean, it was amongst the only work available. So if you had a family and you had mouths to feed, this meant that you would go off to these barracks, these dormitories and be there for months at a time away from your family because you were conscripted to work X number of months and make the money and then go back to your family. So there's a whole sort of culture built around the trains that would take the men away for months at a time, the women who are left by themselves to fend for themselves, to create businesses, to maintain a solid family life for themselves and their kids and the extended families. This is all stuff that was kind of chronicled in their song and their culture.
So a lot of Mambazo lyrics deal with the realities of what it was to be forced into menial labor under the Apartheid system and to separate families, men from women and shove all the men into these barracks that you mentioned.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I was just thinking in terms of the vocal competitions would be like.
Ashley Kahn:
Oh, yeah. You know what's funny about that, Leah, is that the traditional Isicathamiya groups would do these dance steps when they bring their legs down really hard because normally it would be outside on ground so it wasn't too loud, but they had to be very quiet in the barracks. So Isicathamiya became more about a soft landing of the feet. They called them the touch toe guys and the touch toe guys, again, this is kind of the perfunctory conditions of not only how they lived, but it affected their music and their culture. They had to be very soft in how they landed. So all that strength was suggested in these body movements, but not in the sound of their feet hitting the ground.
Leah Roseman:
Okay. Really interesting.
Ashley Kahn:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
So this group that we started talking about, they're only featured on two songs on Graceland, but it's like that sound helps define the sound of the album.
Ashley Kahn:
Oh my -There are these variety of distinctive musical elements, Leah, that just define what Graceland is about. The vocal harmonies, the Ladysmith Black Mambazo and Bakithi Kumalo's fretless bass sound that also has a kind of very deep vocal penetrating aspect to it. That's another. And then of course the rhythms of Isaac Mtshali and Vusi Khumalo, the two South African drummers who are on the album, that all adds to it too.
Leah Roseman:
The fretless bass, it was really interesting to me to read about that story, how he came to play it.
Ashley Kahn:
Economics being what they were back in the day in South Africa. By the way, as much as Ladysmith Black Mambazo represents the Zulu area of South Africa, the other musicians, especially Ray Phiri, guitarist, Ray Phiri, Isaac Mtshali drummer and Bakithi Kumalo and bass represent the Johannesburg studio world, which is slightly more sophisticated, more aware of American influences, jazz and R&B and Earth, Wind & Fire was a huge influence on them. And they basically brought this kind of level of song crafting that Paul needed to match it with the more folk elements that were coming from other areas of South Africa. Now the bass thing with Bakithi is, Bakithi is coming from a tradition where from his early teens, he's been part of the system where producers kind of ran the game to the point that they found the music, they made the recordings, they hired the musicians and they made the money.
So as far as the recording world of South Africa, that's what Bakithi was born into. And they provided the instruments. So Bakithi was this really good bass player who didn't own his own bass. And there came a point in his 20s when he said, "No, I've got to have my own bass." Very little money. It was him and his mom, the two of them against the world. And he wasn't making enough money with his music, but his mom said, "Listen, I've got some money saved up. Go see what you can find." And all he could find was this bass that he could afford, was this bass that had been sitting there for over a year because nobody wanted to approach a fretless bass. Nobody's intonation was that accurate. Later on, Bakithi finds out about Jaco Pastorius and the role of the fretless bass in electric fretless, I should say, in both jazz and pop music.
But for him, he goes, "I got to get this." And that's how he picks up this kind of Japanese built Washburn bass, kind of an off brand and develops. And he goes through the harrowing experience of being off key in live performance and having to put tape on the frets, not on the frets itself, but on the side of the bass so he could remember where the notes were. But he got to the point where he said the secret for him when he really figured out how to handle this instrument, this monster, was realizing it was a voice, that it had a singing quality. And so he had to treat it that way. And that's how he developed his sound.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. It was one of the first things I read in the book that really. I thought that's really one of the sounds you recognize from that album.
Here's Ashley reading from Days of Miracle and Wonder.
Ashley Kahn:
What makes a classic album truly classic? What elevates a recording beyond its time and its place? Albums are classic if they transcend and endure. They are musical statements that become cultural touchstones, etched into vinyl, burned on the compact discs, digitally written in MP4 files, growth rings by which we measure how things once were and how things have changed. Perhaps the better question to ask is how does a true classic remain a classic and how best to measure that lasting power? Paul Simon's Graceland proved to be significant in multiple ways to many people. A bestselling album of lasting musical influence, a technical breakthrough in recorded sound, a major cultural event with impact beyond the confines of popular music, a collaboration of unusual stylistic range and unlikely consequence, a bridge building, genre defining, still hotly debated phenomenon that threw light on a part of the world at a moment when it was undergoing rapid changes as the rest of the world watched.
So rapid that five years after Graceland's arrival, the circumstances that once made it a source of controversy would lead to what was once unthinkable and the invitation of Paul Simon to visit and tour South Africa with African National Congress approval. To trace the long shadow of Graceland to accurately plot its lasting influence and its measurable effect, it is best to unravel the threads a bit and follow the separate trajectories of the recording itself, of Paul Simon and of the Graceland family and bring it home. Here it goes.
Leah Roseman:
Let's talk about some of the lyrics. It's interesting. I'm not really a lyrics person and somebody I've had on this podcast a couple times is the producer, Ian Brennan, who's gone all over the world recording, especially in Africa. We've talked about how for a lot of us, it doesn't matter if it's not in English, you get the emotion of the song.
Ashley Kahn:
Sure.
Leah Roseman:
So with Paul Simon's lyrics, and as I was listening to them more, I was like, "What does this even mean?" And then it was really interesting to get some insight and you go into so much detail and I encourage everyone to of course read the book, but in Diamonds on the So - Yeah. In Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes, one of the lines from the lyrics, "she makes the sign of a teaspoon, he makes the sign of a wave". Can you talk to us about what that's from?
Ashley Kahn:
Sure. I'll just say that hearing you say that, Leah, and also the way you opened up our conversation, underneath everything I do, the teaching I do, the public speaking, the writing is really to return the reader, the audience back to the music. I don't like music writing that becomes kind of of itself and that you don't feel a bridge back to the music. I love the idea that at some point in the middle of reading this book, people are going to put it down and go back to the music. At that point, I feel like my job's done, whatever it takes to get them to the music. Or there's going to be some readers who read this and they haven't experienced the album at all, so they're doing that for the first time. And I hear you about the lyrics. I think that with Paul, it was as much, if not more about the sound of the words and how they matched the music because Graceland was a huge change for him as far as how he constructed songs.
This was such. I mean, sonically, it's so different from everything he had done before, but it was also a result of him starting with the rhythm tracks and kind of building his songs to that both structurally and lyrically. And that was very different for him and he's never shifted back. It's always starting with a great rhythm track and writing to the accents and the off beats and the flow of what's happening with the emotional feel of the music. And so that's why you have some. I mean, what sounds almost like a tossaway verse in the title track about there's a woman in New York City who calls herself the human trampoline. What the heck is that about? Why is it in a tune that eventually deals with the idea of achieving a state of grace or trying to?
She says, "We're bouncing into Graceland." It's got its own little logic and the way Paul tells that I came up with that lyric just by walking near a New York Historical Museum on Central Park West. It just hit him. And so this is the level at which he is kind of dealing with a subconscious influence, but there are times when he's really dealing with real world realities. And the line that you're referring to in Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes about the sign of the teaspoon and the sign of the wave refers to something very specific that he experienced in his three weeks in Johannesburg. And he's taken by a South African musician to go visit the townships to see what the reality is of Black life in Soweto, Southwest townships around Johannesburg. And part of that reality is how do the black South Africans get back to their homes before the curfew that would set in every day under Apartheid because of the Separate Areas Act?
They had to get out of the white areas, even if they had been working there at a certain point. If they don't have a pass to be there in the evening, they have to scoot back home. And so you have this mass exodus suddenly and there's no public transportation. And so there's these private taxis, combis they're called. And they had a whole system worked out that was like you would tell the driver as the taxi would approach, each of these combis, I say taxi, but it's like a minivan. So it would be packed with 12, 14, 18 people all with their belongings and their shopping for the evening, et cetera. And you would have to signal to them which area of Soweto you were going into. And Teaspoon was like a finger pointing down as if you're stirring sugar into your tea. The sign of a wave suggested one area and the teaspoon was another area.
One area is a little bit better off financially, economically, while the other area is a little bit more disadvantaged. And that's the story of Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes, a woman of privilege dating a guy who's not so well stationed.
So the fact that he takes this reality and weaves it into that song in such a great way, and it really speaks to what that story is about, I think is part of his genius.
Leah Roseman:
Here's Ashley reading from "Days of Miracle and Wonder".
Ashley Kahn:
And there's the little peon to Paul, if you want that. Hang on. So this is at the end of the two pages of acknowledgements." And to the song crafter who took a seed of an idea and grew it into a global celebration, opening gates, changing lives, reaching ears and hearts, stepping on toes, causing discussion, leaving stretch marks and soundtracking a rare historical era. Thank you, Paul".
Leah Roseman:
I wanted to mention Verna Gillis because I interviewed her on this podcast a few years ago and we talked about Youssou N’dour and this comes up in the book as well.
Ashley Kahn:
Salif Keita too.
Leah Roseman:
As well, yes. So you know her personally?
Ashley Kahn:
Well, back in my college days, I was not convinced that my future was going to be in the music business. I didn't know I was going to be a tour manager involved with live concert production or tour management. I just was very enamored though of all the sounds, especially the new sounds that were not part of the MTV hair metal sounds and synth rock that was all part of the '80s. To me, I was definitely more enthralled with stuff that had a folky ethnic element and was very rootsy. So I used to go to the blues clubs in New York City all the time, Tramps and Lone Star. I would go to hear African groups that were coming through. And there were two, there was the World Music Institute and then there was Verna Gillis and what she was doing. I think she called her situation Soundscape.
Leah Roseman:
Yup.
Ashley Kahn:
And it turns out she was kind of managing de facto, these two major artists. And at the time there was a number of very young focused African stars who had found a way to record their music in a very modern way. King Sunny Adé, Youssou N’dour, Salif Keita. And there was a new label called Mango Records. And there's a bunch of independents as well, but Mango was the biggest of a lot. And you really looked to them for what was going on from the Caribbean as well as from Africa. And Verna was part of that scene and a real kind of pioneer in bringing those very not small African groups, like usually 12, 13, 14 people and bringing them and finding a way to manage the economics of what it meant to bring a group to the States, present them in New York and then have them go on to other venues around the country.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I'll link her episode for people in your show notes.
Ashley Kahn:
Yeah. And she was a very dedicated, but also a very strong willed figure. And as a woman, taking that stance within the music business was very inspiring.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. It was interesting to read about Lorne Michaels, that he had this adjoining apartment with Paul Simon and what an influence he had on how the album became popular.
Ashley Kahn:
Yeah. Lorne Michaels and the relationship between Lorne and Paul is a very special one. And Paul is someone who does not limit his approach to his projects by, "Oh, well, I only need to deal with music people." Not saying that Lorne's not musically aware or musically friendly, but what he was able to provide in helping to boost this weird, unlike anything else Paul had done before to boost this project to the point of allowing Paul to perform with Ladysmith Black Mambazo before the album had even been released, that was not normal for Saturday Night Live. It was not normal for Lorne, but it speaks to the special relationship. Lorne had been part of the process of hearing Graceland as it was in development. I mean, this is one of those things that Paul called it the bounce. He goes, "Let's get a bounce." He would bounce ideas and music off of people and from Philip Glass to David Byrne to Lenny Waronker at Warner Brothers to Laurie Anderson, Cyndi Lauper. Various stars of the 80s, various musical heavyweights, especially of the New York scene would be invited in. And what Paul would do is play the rhythm track and because he hadn't recorded his vocals yet, he would stand really close to the person and sing into their ear. Paul's a pretty quiet singer, but believe me, he did that to some people who were not expecting it. And I can't tell you how just surprising that must have been to suddenly have Paul Simon speaking straight into your ear and singing the lyric, but that's what he would do. And so I can see why Lorne would believe in this and say, "Okay, let's book this group." And then he'd see pictures or maybe there was video because there were video cams by then of Ladysmith Black Mambazo and play it for him. So I think Lorne was pretty confident that it would have the effect that it did and it was huge.
I mean, even before the album's out, they were getting job offers because of their appearance, Ladysmith. This was in late spring of 1986 and the album doesn't come out till August.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. It was really fascinating to read the creative arc and the layered composition and production. And honestly, I think things that slightly annoyed me about the album previously, I had a new appreciation for as I read about it because I understood some of the complexity.
Ashley Kahn:
Please tell me what was bothering you about the album?
Leah Roseman:
Well, it's more poppy music than I would normally listen to.
Ashley Kahn:
Okay.
Leah Roseman:
I'm not a music writer and I'd have to really think about how to describe it to which tracks, Ashley, but especially when I listened to it when it first came out because I'd grown up with Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel because my parents had these albums. So it wasn't folky and I liked the different sounds, but there's a lot going on, right? It's kind of symphonic.
Ashley Kahn:
Yeah. No, listen, I'm with you. I mean, a lot of my musical kind of navigating in the 1980s was an avoidance of the pop overly wrought, overly produced sounds that I just couldn't get with. And so the more raw, the more rootsy the music, And of course I was even listening to stuff in the 20s and 30s back in the days of field recordings and blues and music of the people was really what was appealing to me. So that sort of balance between authenticity, but you wanted clean production as well. That I think kind of defines the whole production process that generated Graceland because they were using the technology of the day, the digital techniques in the studio, digital recording, the idea of digital tape, which really didn't have that same warmth and 360 degree feel as analog tape. I mean, we're at the height of high fidelity by the 1970s, but by the opening of the 80s, that's when you got these two approaches to recording starting to deal with each other. They weren't at odds with each other, they were just dealing with each other.
And so the real hero of that aspect of the story is Ray Halee who had been with Simon and Garfunkel from their audition for Columbia Records in 1964, all the way through Paul's solo career up to Graceland. And it was he who was there with Paul at every recording session, every mix session. He does take a break for one week and Phil Ramone comes in, but during that year and a half process of putting that album together, Ray is there making sure that the balance and the warmth and the authenticity of the guitar sounds, of that bass sound, of the vocals, et cetera, balances out the use of the new digital technologies.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Yeah. You really go into some detail in the book about Ray's work and just dedication. I mean the hours, it just seems very daunting.
Ashley Kahn:
Yeah. In the middle of that recording process, he goes from smoking three packs of cigarettes a day to nothing at all. He goes cold turkey and he turns his health and his life around during that recording process. And I can understand why.
Leah Roseman:
How long was the actual from beginning to end for Graceland project?
Ashley Kahn:
Well, it's 1984 when he first hears the cassette that's given to him by a friend, you know Cassettes of course is the name of the very first chapter because that's the medium that represented a new way of listening to music, but also interacting with recorded music where you could create your own mix tapes, your own bootleg tapes, as the industry liked to call it, and then listen to it in your car or convey that mix tape with a very deep, meaningful message as has been done in Hollywood films to someone special. And this tape, certain tape is really what. And that was the '80s. We call it playlists now on streaming platforms, but back then that was how you interacted in your own way and had an interactive feel with the music.
He knew from that point that he wanted to record with the actual musicians on that cassette, and that was a major difference from what. I mean, his record company was like, "Okay, we'll get some great New York players together to recreate the sound." And he said, "No, I want to work with those musicians." One more stroke for authenticity. So if you use that as the beginning, summer of 1984 to February of 85, when he actually goes down to Johannesburg and starts the sessions, and of course the recording sessions don't end in South Africa. He's also recording in Louisiana with Zydeco groups in LA with Los Lobos and Linda Ronstadt and the Everly Brothers, and then back to New York and doing sessions here.
Leah Roseman:
London.
Ashley Kahn:
And London, thank you, with Ladysmith Black Mambazo. That's mostly 1985. The album's ready to be released in the spring of 1986, but he has one more tune that he comes up with and he goes, "I have to have this on the album." It's Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes. It's great because it actually has both Ladysmith Black Mambazo and the Johannesburg musicians and also Youssou N’dour who's playing percussion and two of his percussionists are on it. So it's a real kind of community feel on that tune specifically. So the album's held off end of August 1986 is when it comes out. So a little over two years.
Leah Roseman:
Do you think we should get into the controversy? So let's talk about the cultural boycott and how it impacted the perception of Paul going to work there.
Hi, just a quick break to let you know which episodes I’ve linked in the show notes for you, with Verna Gillis the ethnomusicologist who recorded traditional music globally, founded Soundcape, and worked as a manager and concert producer with Youssou N’dour and Salif Keita, then I have linked several episodes featuring wonderful musicians recorded with Ian Brennan across 5 continents, Jah’Mila the Reggae singer with a focus on her cultural roots and career path, Omo Bello the Nigerian-French opera singer with a focus on her album of African art songs with Rebeca Omordia, and my couple of episodes with Pat Irwin, a renowned film and television composer and musician who played with the B52s and other bands for many years. These few episodes are linked along with my catalogue of over 250 episodes since 2021. Sign up for my newsletter, where you’ll get exclusive information about upcoming guests, consider buying me a coffee on my Ko-fi page, or buying some unique podcast merch. You can also review this podcast, share it with your friends, and follow on your podcast app, YouTube, and social media. All this helps spread the word! Thanks. Now back to my conversation with Ashley
So let's talk about the cultural boycott and how it impacted the perception of Paul going to work there.
Ashley Kahn:
Yeah. I mean, listen, the idea of cultural appropriation versus cultural celebration or collaboration, what makes it right, what makes it work, what makes it okay on an ethical level versus a musical level, these are intricacies and approaches that we now have much richer vocabulary to speak about, to think about, and it's nothing that new. In the '80s, it was very new and there was a lot of stuff that was kind of muddled up in the minds of a lot of critics and a lot of media people, certainly in the public as to this very privileged white Western rock star taking advantage of a certain level of privilege and resources and making this album happen. Paul keeps asking the question or bringing up the kind of ways of looking at this in interviews, in statements that he's making, press conferences that he was giving around the time.
He speaks more about Graceland and explains it again and again more than any other album in his career before since. And he's very committed to the idea of saying, "I have thought about this aspect of it. I have meticulously approached how to make sure that the right things are done in the right way, in the right fashion, the compensation question, the idea of credit, of full credit, and also the idea of participation as in bringing the faces of the musicians forward so they can enjoy the spotlight." And that's what the Graceland tour was all about. 24 musicians who were on that tour were the same musicians who helped make the album. Again, it wasn't just the New York cats. The other twist, of course, is the fact that there was a very loosely worded, open to interpretation, cultural boycott in place that had been instituted by the United Nations and was being run by the anti-Apartheid office.
I mean, the more that I investigated that, the more that I saw that everybody was on the same side. Nobody wanted Apartheid. Everybody was totally aghast at it. The controversy was over process, how to handle the proper approach to anti-Apartheid. The thing is that the leading anti-Apartheid organization at the time, what would become the leading political party in the future of South Africa, African National Congress, the ANC and the UN had instituted this cultural boycott, but almost immediately. By the way, it comes in in 1980, so this is about five years before Paul Simon goes down there. Almost immediately, it's being tested by stuff like the popularity of various South African Black theater productions that are traveling over to the States and the UK and are popular. Woza Albert, Master Harold and the Boys. Ladysmith Black Mambazo is touring Europe, and so is Juluka, a multiracial group led by Johnny Clegg.
All of these examples are kind of testing- I mean, the way it's worded in the cultural boycott resolution is minimizing cultural exchange. That's all it says. Well, what does that mean? Does that mean for the most part, it was understood to mean that these big groups should not be performing in South Africa, making money in the South African Apartheid system and taking advantage of that system and then going home and playing to only white audiences down there. Not unlike what was going on in our own south here in America in the '50s and '60s and why the Beatles had a clause in their contract that said they would not play to segregated audiences when they performed here. And they had to put that in that, in their contracts in 64. There was a lot of blaming of. I think a couple of things did not help Paul's position.
One was definitely the success of Graceland. Had it not been usually successful, I don't think it just would've been a moment that went under the radar. The second thing, of course, is the idea that there was not a clear anti-Apartheid statement in any of his lyrics, but of course he's drawing his lyrics through his own experiences, through his own subconscious. So that's why most of the lyrics seem to point to the perspective of a 40-year-old.
These aren't lyrics about being born to run, of being in your mid - 20s and breaking out of conformity or anything like that. These are the concerns and issues that someone in their midlife situation are dealing with. But in answer to that, I'll end with this idea, is that every night, and I would witness this on the road, every night the Graceland tour would end with this moment of all 24 of the musicians coming to the lip of the stage and they would sing the anti-Apartheid anthem that had been banned in South Africa called Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika. Fists would be raised and it was clear what the end statement was. And so there's an interview with Ray Phiri, the guitarist in Rolling Stone in 87 where he says, "How can anyone listen to this album or think about what Graceland represents and not realize that it's an anti-Apartheid statement?"
Leah Roseman:
In 1989, when you went on the tour with them, I'm trying to remember the name of the two musicians who were in exile in England.
Ashley Kahn:
Hugh Masekela, Trumpeter and Miriam Makeba,
Leah Roseman:
Yes
Ashley Kahn:
the vocalist.
Leah Roseman:
Were they on that tour?
Ashley Kahn:
Yes, they were.
Leah Roseman:
Okay.
Ashley Kahn:
One of the strongest memories that I had of that particular tour was traveling on a bus from. We had no choice. Everybody had to be on a bus going from East Berlin to West Berlin after we had played communist Soviet Union, and we had played Leningrad and two shows in Moscow. And then I was in the bus next to Hugh Masekela, and we're talking about the tour, we're talking about South African music. He actually knew my family in Cape Town because they would book jazz events back in the '50s when he was in a group with a gentleman named Abdullah Ibrahim, back then known as Dollar Brand. We're talking about the music and I asked him, "One of the things that strikes me about this music is so joyous, so celebratory, so positive, and yet the background, the cultural background is so. There's such a feeling of subjugation and hopelessness with what was going on there with Apartheid." And he turned to me and his statement, I'm paraphrasing now, is basically, "Ashley, we've won.We're celebrating already. It's just a question of time."
Leah Roseman:
Before we leave the Graceland Project, I just want to mention to people, I did watch the documentary Under African Skies. Yeah, it was just interesting to see the musicians and the interaction and the reunion. It was quite emotional to see that.
So let's talk about some of your other work. I mean, you're a Grammy-winning music historian. You're such a good writer. I'm curious, were you writing all along before you got to books?
Ashley Kahn:
There was a moment in my career path, and I use that word generously, that looking back, it kind of makes sense, but if you measure it, I'm ping ponging between different experiences and challenges in my professional career. There came a point when I put aside the idea of being a music journalist, which I kind of developed and fell into while I was at college and afterwards said, "I want to be where the music is happening, where artists and audiences meet," which is of course in live performance. So whether it was working with clubs, eventually working with a music series that is still active and very vibrant part of the New York City scene, talking about Central Park Summer Stage, I was there for two and a half years, and then moving on to tour management and being given the incredible opportunity to work with Ladysmith Black Mambazo.
So all of that was kind of driven by the idea of just wanting to have experience more so than the writing thing. And when I returned to writing in my 30s, late 30s, it was with the idea that I had more to share and something beyond just musical opinions, which is what criticism is, but I could be a journalist. And of course, you never stop reading. If you write, you read. And in reading, one learns the craft. So there's as much Graham Greene, I hope, in my writing as there is the music critics and journalists that spoke to me, like a Nat Hentoff in the jazz world, or Lester Bangs, and then later David Frick and Anthony DeCurtis and people like that. John Perales at the New York Times who were able to, within a very limited 250 words, 500 words, get the details right and get the relevant information across.
So all of that I think shaped me in a way. I was not on anyone's schedule, not on my schedule to get a book by this point or whatever. It was just staying in the game, so to speak.
Leah Roseman:
You wrote two books about jazz albums, right?
Ashley Kahn:
Right.
Leah Roseman:
Kind of Blue, Miles Davis and Love Supreme, John Coltrane.
Ashley Kahn:
Yeah. The fact that they're jazz, Leah, is just happenchance. I love a wide variety of music and I'm not intimidated by one or the other. Jazz can sometimes be intimidating for some reason. And I think it's music that is as emotional, as heartfelt and as message giving as anything with lyrics. And a lot of jazz, of course, is instrumental. And the two books that I wrote on specific albums were instrumental albums, Kind of Blue by Miles Davis, Love Supreme by John Coltrane. In my readings that I referred to before, the idea of reading other music writers, there were very few who would satisfy all the questions that come up in my head as to how did this music happen? Where did it fit into the career arc of the band leader and also the sidemen? Was this typical? Was this sort of anomaly of what their work was about?
What about the record company? What about the studio? What kind of tape were they using? I was aware of this, of those other ways of looking at recorded music because of my experiences in the real world, in the real music business world. And as a result, I sort of knew what I wanted to ask and I wanted to know where this would go to. Now, not every recording is going to generate a full book of information or something that is worthy of multiple chapters of study and explanation and of that kind of deep dive. But those two albums most definitely. There's so much history, there's so much musical information to discuss, et cetera. And every book is a kind of exercise and rehearsal for the next one. So you get better at what you do along the way. And I think that as a result, the book on Graceland, "Days of Miracle and Wonder" has definitely benefited from that path of development.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. And you also wrote a book about Impulse Records company, "The House the Trane Built".
Ashley Kahn:
Yeah. There was so much extra information Leah that came out of the research that I did into John Coltrane. And I was asked to write an article for a jazz magazine on a certain anniversary of the label and it all seemed to make sense. And it was such a special moment with some very special people, especially the producers, Creed Taylor who started the label and then Bob Thiele who took it over and became the man at John Coltrane's side when he did some of his most avant-garde challenging music in the latter part of his career. And all of these stories just deserve telling and were kind of speaking to me in that way. So taking that extra information, the overflow from Love Supreme and turning it into its own story, that was the seed of that idea.
Leah Roseman:
And your book about Carlos Santana, "The Universal Tone", I did watch the movie about him because I didn't know that much -
Ashley Kahn:
"Carlos".
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, "Carlos". So did he approach you to write the book with him about his life?
Ashley Kahn:
Well, yeah. I mean, it's not a book about Carlos. It's Carlos speaking of his life.
It's an autobiography and has a bit of an as told to aspect. And the highest praise that I've taken from that or the praise that matters the most to me is that Carlos' voice and that his worldview, which is very expansive and a lot to take in, hence the length of the book, is all in there. And so I'm very, very proud that I was true to who Carlos is and how Carlos sounds. The process of getting that is a little funny. It's a little old school. It's something that I don't mind sharing with my students. And that is the idea of always being ready when opportunity knocks and having the right tools in hand. From what I was later told by Carlos' publicist was that there was about a dozen different writers who were interviewed in the same process. They visited the hotel. Carlos lives in Las Vegas, so he'd have this little interview process with himself, his manager and the publicist, and he'd be sitting there talking with him.
I treated that as if it was the first interview to the book. And I showed up, not with a recording device, but with a pad of paper and a pen. And I took notes and I took notes and I took notes. Apparently I was the only one who did.
Leah Roseman:
That's very interesting.
Ashley Kahn:
Yeah. And I still have that page from our first talk and I show it in a slideshow and I say, "Guys, be ready when opportunity knocks and have the right tool in hand."
Leah Roseman:
Was there anything about that process of listening to his stories that kind of surprised you about him or his path in music?
Ashley Kahn:
That's a good question. Carlos has achieved such heights, both at the beginning of his career, being in the Woodstock movie. And that movie is one of the most seen and revered remnants of the 1960s hippie flower power moments, as well as the idea that he came back and he had a kind of graceland career saving success with Supernatural in 1999, which was multiple Grammy winning as well. And the parallels are there as far as mid-career '60s heroes with Paul Simon is what I'm saying. But Carlos' story has so many chapters, so many levels. For me, the surprises, the revelations of who he was and how he is today of Carlos becoming Carlos, it's all in the first four chapters, which are the chapters of him being born in Mexico, in Jalisco, one of the provinces that's right up against the Pacific where Mariachi comes from.
And then growing up in Tijuana and falling in love with the electric guitar, falling in love with the blues, the sound of rock and roll, and then developing his career from then. Those first four chapters always get me. It's my favorite part of the book.
Leah Roseman:
Actually, do you want to read any of that for this audience or?
Ashley Kahn:
So I'll set this up. This is Carlos talking about playing in Tijuana and falling in love with the blues. "When I started out in Tijuana, I played funky three chord blues changes. After a while, I started to get into songs like Georgia on My Mind and Misty a little bit. As time went by, I got more and more into the blues, black blues. And more and more, the guys I hung out with were into nothing but the hardcore blues, Black American music. Other groups in Tijuana would want to play Elvis Presley or Fabian or Bobby Rydell, that Dick Clark kind of stuff, yuck. Even when songs by Pat Boone and Paul Anka, songs like Volare were popular and played on the radio, we didn't want to touch that. We had a badge of honor. Once I started down that road, there was no turning back.
The Blacker the sound, the rootsier the guitar, the more I wanted it. That meant I wanted to hear Black singers whenever I could. Tijuana had its resident R&B star, Gene Ross. He sort of looked like Joe Frazier. Don Loro Saveda, who ran the El Convoy Club, had brought him down from New Orleans. Gene had a falsetto voice like Aaron Neville's with power and he could play the hell out of the piano. He had a big repertoire of songs. Many I didn't know till he sang them. Summertime, Georgia on my Mind, Let the Good Times Roll. Something's Got a hold on me. He'd sing, I Loves You, Porgy, and man, it just gave you chills. Playing in the house band at El Convoy meant I eventually played as support for Gene and also behind these other weekend musicians, Black Americans who came down from San Diego to play like this one guy who called himself Mr. T and looked like he was Albert King's brother. He would hit Tijuana, score some grass and some uppers, get up some courage and sing Stormy Monday Blues. That was his one song and he would kill it every time. Other musicians would come down from as far away as San Jose for a long weekend, spend all their money in their first night, then sing at El Convoy to make enough money to get back home on Sunday. Gene and these Black weekenders became my teachers. They took my blues training to another level. After a while, I couldn't learn anything else from the radio or records. I had to really, really get it in live. The only way was if these blues guys were right next to me like that, close enough for me to feel the way the singer would stomp his foot and the way he'd be getting on that piano.
I would learn by the dirty looks they gave me if I messed up the changes or the time. It was all extremely educational because I learned the ingredients, the rhythms and the flow, the sound symmetry of that music."
Leah Roseman:
Wonderful. Thanks for reading that.
Ashley Kahn:
Sure.
Leah Roseman:
Well, just to close this out.
Ashley Kahn:
Sure.
Leah Roseman:
If you want to reflect briefly, like you're a professor at New York University in terms of being a mentor to your students or what you learned from them or how that's changed over the years. Sure.
Ashley Kahn:
Happy to respond to that. As being a teacher, being someone who steps up in a classroom setting and my job is then to bring the wisdom, bring the experience and help and make sense for these future music professionals primarily. Sometimes I'll get people who are in the different worlds of math or sciences and they're studying that, but they want to also study a course on Miles Davis or on Led Zeppelin or on Talking Heads or on Aretha Franklin. These are the kinds of courses that have taught and Paul Simon and Graceland. The big picture for me is that I'm speaking to young future adults, future professionals who are considering a future that was chosen for them when they were usually about eight, nine or 10 years old. So they, like myself, need the kind of courage building and confidence building that this path is a worthy one.
The reality of it is, Leah, that the society we live in has a very sort of ambivalent feeling towards music as a profession. It's written into movie scripts and novels of people who are drawn to music and their parents are like, "Yeah, but how are you going to make a living? How are you going to raise kids? How are you going to pay the rent?" And our society recognizes the stars, the huge success stories, but it doesn't have time for supporting those who might end up being part of the music middle class. And so for me, I think one of the most important things I can convey is this idea that one, there are many roles you can play. You do not have to necessarily be the star up at that microphone, killing it every time and bringing in the big bucks. Life is not American Idol.
Life is not The Voice, especially in the world of professional music, that you could end up with a very successful career running a studio, writing songs, being an artist manager, running clubs, or finding a way of conveying the music, of delivering the music in a new fashion other than say streaming. And let's hope that it's a little bit more equitable in how it handles the musicians. But these are all part of the music community. And the other thing is that if you are able to have a career that pays the rent or you're able to put down money on a house and raise a family and keep food on the table, you are a success. The way, again, that society and this whole Western world looks at music, if you can succeed by being a music professional, consider yourself a success. The rest of the game is just the number of zeros on the check.
So I think that's after all these years and experiences and what I do, that's the message I try and deliver and say, "Be joyous, celebrate this amazing choice that you've made to pursue music as a career, but keep your expectations humble and just take care of the music, take care of yourselves, be healthy, be happy."
Leah Roseman:
Beautiful.
Ashley Kahn:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Well, thanks so much for this today. I really appreciate it.
Ashley Kahn:
You're most welcome.
Leah Roseman:
I hope you enjoyed this episode. Keep in mind, I've also linked directly several episodes you'll find interesting in the show notes of this one. Please do share this with your friends and check out episodes you may have missed at LeahRoseman.com. If you could buy me a coffee to support this series, that would be wonderful. I'm an independent podcaster and I really do need the help of my listeners. All the links are in the show notes. The podcast theme music was written by Nick Kold. Have a wonderful week.
