Tammy Takaishi: Music Therapy, Creativity and Podcasting
Below is the transcript of my conversation with Tammy Takaishi. Link for Podcast, Video and Show Notes
Tammy Takaishi (00:00:00):
I love that every day looks different and feels different, and so I became aware of it when I was in grad school there, and I immediately applied and just went from one degree to another, no stop. And I've never been happier. I was like, oh, I got there. I got to school. I got in those classes. I was like, oh, that's, this is it. This is my field. This is my niche. These are my people. I finally felt like I found my purpose. I belonged.
Leah Roseman (00:00:32):
Hi. You're listening to Conversations with Musicians with Leah Roseman, which I hope inspires you through the personal stories of a fascinating diversity of musical guests. Tammy Takaishi is a board certified music therapist, podcaster and writer based in New York. We talked about her podcast Creative Peacemeal, her meaningful and multifaceted career as a music therapist and her full creative life, including her writing. If music therapy is a career you're curious about, you'll be inspired by her stories and insights. As fellow podcasters, we definitely bonded over our enthusiasm for the medium and the wide range of fascinating creative people we've been able to connect with. I know that fans of Tammy's podcast will be interested to learn more about her path and personal perspectives. You can watch this on my YouTube or listen to the podcast. I've also linked the transcript to my website, LeahRoseman.com. It's a joy to bring these inspiring episodes to every week, and I do all the many jobs of research, production and publicity. Have a look at the show notes of this episode where you'll find all the links, including different ways to support this podcast now to Tammy Takaishi.
(00:01:42):
Hey, Tammy. Thanks so much for joining me here today.
Tammy Takaishi (00:01:45):
Hi, I'm so excited to be here.
Leah Roseman (00:01:48):
Well, your childhood involved musical theater camp playing different instruments.
Tammy Takaishi (00:01:54):
Yeah, yeah. I play so many instruments. Some of them I picked up as an adult, but when I was a kid, I played piano and violin and my siblings were musicians. My parents were musicians. Nobody pursued it professionally or chose to pursue it professionally rather, but it was just always a very musical household and just, I loved that. I mean, going to orchestra concerts, seeing my sisters perform, it was just lovely. Just lovely having a musical childhood.
Leah Roseman (00:02:31):
What specific musical memories do you have about playing together?
Tammy Takaishi (00:02:36):
Yeah. Well, we all played violin growing up. Both my sisters and I, I'm the youngest of three, so some of the earlier memories is everyone getting out their violins and just squeaking along together to Suzuki music or our mom at the piano, and we'd all sing along to Christmas carols or my dad and I would listen to Mozart operas together, particularly the Marriage of Figaro, which was one of his favorites. My sister, Jessica absolutely loves the Phantom of the Opera, so she would have those books out and she'd be singing along to those, and I'd sing along the duet parts with her. But yeah, just being in the moment, being in the music, bonding over that, it was really nice.
Leah Roseman (00:03:26):
Do you have memorable concerts you attended when you were younger, that kind of,
Tammy Takaishi (00:03:30):
Oh gosh, so many. I mean, even things like rock concerts and things with my friends, just a ton. I think one of my earliest concerts I ever went to was the Sharon Lewis and Bram Elephant show. I don't know if you remember that TV show as a kid that was around, but I remember going to that and being really excited. I was like four years old. It's one of my first concerts.
Leah Roseman (00:03:59):
Okay, and you write poetry, I believe you've written at least one novel?
Tammy Takaishi (00:04:07):
Yes. Nothing's published.
Leah Roseman (00:04:08):
Yeah.
Tammy Takaishi (00:04:09):
Poetry is published. None of the novels are published yet,
Leah Roseman (00:04:12):
And songwriting. How do you juggle these creative pursuits apart from your podcast, which we'll get into, which is a whole thing.
Tammy Takaishi (00:04:21):
Yeah. Well, sometimes the juggle turns into a pause and that's okay, and that's part of the creative process for me. Songwriting and poetry mostly come out of a need to process emotions or events that happen for me, so that is not necessarily going to be an everyday thing just whenever it happens, and I just do that in the moment, which I absolutely love. I have been songwriting a lot more since last summer. Yeah, I mean, I moved here and there was so much to process and change about living in New York versus other places and a change of life, so there was a lot of songs to write, a lot of feelings to get out, and I don't keep myself on a specific schedule I must create from this hour to this hour. I don't do that. I just follow what I need in the moment, and if I feel like I need time at the piano today, I take it. If I feel like, oh, I've got X number of hours to kill, I think I'm going to work on this book that I've shelved ages ago. I might pull that out. I haven't really touched any of my creative writing in a while. In terms of most creativity, I've been really focusing on poetry and songwriting, not only for time-wise because they're smaller bits, but also because that's just what I've needed lately at this time, and I also don't want to detract from podcasting, which takes up a lot of time, as you know. So yeah, it's about finding that balance, living life, exploring things, working, and finding a balance of how much creative time do I need? What is the least amount of creative time do I need that I need, when do I need it more? And advocating and understanding my needs as I flow through life.
Leah Roseman (00:06:26):
Do you do any visual art?
Tammy Takaishi (00:06:28):
No, I'm really horrible at it. My mother was a painter and very visual art based. I have tried knitting briefly, like loom knitting, and that was kind of fun. But in terms of painting, sketching, drawing, I am - Crafts, unfortunately, I'm really bad at it, and I also get really frustrated very easily with them, so it's not something that I naturally am going to be inclined to do.
Leah Roseman (00:06:55):
Yeah, I tried knitting for a while and it just felt like torture, just, yeah, so frustrating, but people who love it, it's so meditative for them.
Tammy Takaishi (00:07:05):
Yeah. I've actually found the loom knitting to be way less frustrating than needle knitting for myself. I still haven't finished much, but it's a lot faster and it's a lot easier to keep track of, and I actually find it a little more meditative than classic needle knitting. I also like to do that with friends or have something going on in the background. I can't just sit and loom knit in silence or alone. I've discovered if I'm doing it alone, I'm like, well, this is boring.
Leah Roseman (00:07:42):
Is it like a small, I don't know, loom knitting is? Is it a small loom?
Tammy Takaishi (00:07:46):
Yeah, it looks like it's usually circular and it's got a bunch of pegs and you wrap the yarn around it and then loop it with a, I dunno, it looks like a dentist thing, a hook. It does take a little bit of practice, but definitely easier for me at least than classic needle knitting, which I did learn in college, but I didn't get very far with it.
Leah Roseman (00:08:15):
Well, I remember when you had me on your podcast, or maybe we were talking separate from that, you had said that you had done a ton of research before you launched Creative Peacemeal, which I did not do. I've been researching as I go along. So I'm curious, what has changed and what's been surprising over the last few years in terms of your initial research?
Tammy Takaishi (00:08:36):
Such a great question. Well, after initially researching and starting, I didn't really do much research after that because I just jumped in. But in terms of what has changed or surprised me about my own show, I guess I'm surprised how many people are interested because it's humbling to realize you and I are both in the top 5% in the world. That's hard to get to, and it's humbling to know that many people listen to our shows, that many people are inspired by our shows. They want to learn more about what we're talking about. It's just amazing, and I've learned that it's way more than a hobby for me. It's definitely a passion project, bare minimum.
Leah Roseman (00:09:30):
Well, in terms of curating diversity and planning, do you try not to have, let's say, three novelists in a row? Because you have such a range of creative people.
Tammy Takaishi (00:09:42):
I try to, but that doesn't always work that way because based on when people's
Leah Roseman (00:09:52):
Availability
Tammy Takaishi (00:09:52):
Projects come out and in availability, and then trying to honor the guest and being able to put out their show around the time that their book releases or their album releases, I've tried to do that very much, but it's actually hard because I've had such a influx of guests, I am considering creating a waiting list. I've actually turned some people down. I mean, it's exploded in a good way, but I only have so many weeks and so much time, and my audio engineer only has so much time, and we can only do so many things. So I do try to schedule things so that it's varied, but sometimes it's like, okay, well, it's going to be three authors in a row, and it is what it is, but because each one's going to offer something different anyway.
Leah Roseman (00:10:44):
Yeah. Now you always ask your guests at the end, what does living a creative life mean to you? We did talk about creativity in your life, but through podcasting, how has that changed for you?
Tammy Takaishi (00:10:59):
I feel like it's really opened me up to not only understand what it means to other people and the beauty and diversity of the answers, but living a creative life to me is just being your authentic self in whatever you do, and bringing your own creative spirit to that. And for someone, it might be creative in a more scientific way. For others, it might be more creative in what people would think as a more artsy way, and that's nothing wrong with that. I think for me personally, I'm definitely living a very creative life, and I can't imagine doing anything outside of that.
(00:11:44):
I feel very, very blessed, and it's been really, really nice to hear the diversity of answers, like I said, and to think on what people say and carry that with me and learn from my guests and grow from my guests. I mean, I've met some amazing people, yourself included from the show that I wouldn't have connected with otherwise. And I think part of living a creative life is connecting with other humans, whether it's through conversation, through art, through music, through dance, through attending shows together. That's a really important part of creativity is not only for yourself, but for others and within a sense of a community.
Leah Roseman (00:12:33):
So I believe you've interviewed some of your heroes.
Tammy Takaishi (00:12:37):
Yeah, yeah. I've had the opportunity to interview so many people, including one of my favorite childhood authors, Bruce Coville. He is an absolute delight. The wonderful Jennifer Higdon composer, Jennifer Higdon. She's just fabulous. We shared the UMKC connection together. I was briefly at the conservatory there for a master's that I started and didn't finish. I just collect degrees along the way. Yeah. And then of course, colleagues in my field who I admire and look up to, it's been wonderful to have them on my show.
Leah Roseman (00:13:15):
Are there people that you had to, without mentioning names that you kind of had to pursue, it was hard to get them?
Tammy Takaishi (00:13:24):
No, actually, everything's sort of just lucked out. I've never had to really chase anyone. I do have one guest where we've been going back and forth for years just from a scheduling standpoint, but they're definitely very interested and they want to be on the show. It's, we've never been able to make it work, given both our schedules. And then there's people who I'm interested in, and maybe one day they'll be on the show, but I bookmark it and keep it in the back of my pocket. I love Sara Bareilles, the singer songwriter Sara Bareilles, and I'd love for her to be on my show, but I'm not quite there yet. I don't think I'm quite there yet. Maybe I'm not popular enough. She's super busy. But maybe one day
Leah Roseman (00:14:15):
Something you talk about is burnout management, and I was curious about self care and what helps you with overwhelm and stuff you've learned.
Tammy Takaishi (00:14:24):
Yeah. Well, for me, it's just taking time throughout my day to ground. I mean, I don't necessarily have to, I mean, I love what I do, so I never really feel like I have to ground myself. But there are times when it's like, okay, ground myself before I go into a session, ground myself in the mornings before I get to work. I always get to work unless there's commuter issues, I always get to work at least 15 minutes to a half hour early, and I take time for myself before the workday starts. And of course, exploring the city. Some of the self-care for me is spending time with loved ones, going to museums, exploring the city, being outside, just taking that time. I'm not really an alone time person. I definitely enjoy being more social, and for me, self-care includes being social and going to events, having experiences, especially musical experiences, going to concerts. They have the Naumburg Concert Series in Central Park here where it's usually they're playing Baroque music, Baroque and Classical out at the Naumburg band shell in Central Park. They do those every summer, rain or shine. I love going to those. There's one coming up soon that I'm hoping to go to, and that's part of self-care for me is just getting out to concerts, getting in nature, just enjoying life.
Leah Roseman (00:15:46):
Do you have tips for discounted tickets in New York?
Tammy Takaishi (00:15:50):
Well, the Naumburg bandshell is free for those, but in terms of discounted tickets, I actually don't know because I get a lot of mine through work. But I do know that there's special, there's a Broadway Direct and Tix today. There's apps that people can use and do get tickets that way or enter ticket lotteries, and then you don't have to go stand around in Times Square or anything like that. You just enter ticket lotteries on your phone. So
Leah Roseman (00:16:20):
You guys get comps through your music therapy connection?
Tammy Takaishi (00:16:25):
Just the, well, sometimes I do get comps to shows because people are guests on the show and I want to support them, and they're like, oh, we'll give you free tickets. I'm like, okay. So it's been really nice. But in terms of work, we have a whole department that just handles ticketing for healthcare workers.
Leah Roseman (00:16:44):
Okay. That's very cool.
Tammy Takaishi (00:16:45):
Yeah, it is really nice. It's a nice perk.
Leah Roseman (00:16:49):
So you moved back to New York after 10 years for a really exciting job. Do you want to tell us about that?
Tammy Takaishi (00:16:55):
I did, yeah. I actually am really blessed to have gotten my dream job at my dream location. I get to work in the NICU as a board certified music therapist. I absolutely love it. And of course, the city is amazing. New York is just full of life, and for me, it's just so life giving. And I mean, just the past few weeks, I've had six, seven different events to go to. So it's just been wonderful being surrounded by culture, art, music. It's been great.
Leah Roseman (00:17:27):
My mom used to work in a hospital, so I'm familiar with this stuff. But NICU is a neonatal unit.
Tammy Takaishi (00:17:33):
Yes, neonatal intensive care unit
Leah Roseman (00:17:35):
As well. There's so much. I want to ask you about your role as a music therapist, but what kind of work do you do with those tiny babies?
Tammy Takaishi (00:17:42):
Yeah, well, that's such a great question. We do research, but I also provide family support. We use specially designed instruments in the NICU for respiratory support and training with heartbeat, feeding support, transitioning to sleep, tension release for the families, tension release for the babies, it's just also providing music for the environment, for the staff, for the caregivers, making sure that the sound environment is less toxic sounding. There's always beeps and alarms and all sorts of things going on. So it's just really great to be able to provide for across that three-prong, the caregiver, the infant, and the environment. And sometimes we do custom lullabies, things like that, songwriting processing for families in that regard. So I feel very blessed. I feel very blessed. I mean, music therapy can be across a lot of different populations and communities from working in nursing homes, schools, correctional facilities, all sorts of places. And I'm just really excited to be where I'm at right now.
Leah Roseman (00:19:04):
As you're mentioning all these things you mentioned in training with the breath, so you're trying to get their breathing slower or faster, and how does that work?
Tammy Takaishi (00:19:14):
Yeah, so we actually use a specially designed instrument called an ocean disc, Dr. Joannne Loewy She created with Remo, especially designed instrument so that it could be used in the NICU because they're controlling for decibel level, so there's less beads, there's more padding, so it's not as loud. And so we are trained in it in the rhythm breath, lullaby method, and we're trained and we utilize that ocean disc and we entrain to the respiratory rate of the baby. And then we either bring it up or down depending on what's needed.
Leah Roseman (00:19:50):
I still don't understand what this thing is or what it does.
Tammy Takaishi (00:19:53):
Oh, okay. So we play this instrument live for the babies, and it sort of sounds like an ocean and it swirls. So we swirl, we play it, and it makes swirling sound, ocean sounds, and we time it so that the swirls are in time with a baby's respiratory rate. So how fast or slow they're breathing, we might subdivide of course, and then we're going to change our tempo on the instrument to bring the baby's breath lower or respiratory rate lower or higher. And the idea, of course, is that you have a lower respiratory rate, you're taking deeper breaths, you're getting more oxygen to the brain.
Leah Roseman (00:20:35):
So is an electronic instrument or an acoustic instrument?
Tammy Takaishi (00:20:39):
No, acoustic.
Leah Roseman (00:20:40):
Oh, what does it look like?
Tammy Takaishi (00:20:42):
It's essentially like a round cylinder with a leather bottom and a clear top on the front so that you can see the beads with little silver beads. It's padded on the inside as well. Like a giant disc, like it's this thick. Yeah, it's really neat. Really, really soothing, really calming, even for adults. And it reflects the sound of the amniotic fluid in the womb. So one of the first sounds a baby hears, and even us as adults, we hear that and it's just instantly calming.
Leah Roseman (00:21:18):
Wow. So you mentioned writing custom lullabies. What does that look like working with the families?
Tammy Takaishi (00:21:27):
Yeah, so we work with a holistic approach, but also from a music, like a medical psychotherapy approach, and custom lullabies, not everyone obviously wants one or is interested, but it is something that we offer and we can do where we work with the parents, they might create lyrics, they might just give a few ideas for lyrics. Everyone's involvement depends on their comfort level and how much they want to process. And picking out. If someone's not super musical, I might play a few different chord progressions and be like, oh, do you want this one, this one, or this one? And they pick the one that feels right for them. Or if they are pretty musical, I'll be like, oh, what do you think of this? Do you want to play this also? And incorporating, because some parents will bring their own instruments into the NICU and play for their babies. So it really depends on that. But it's all customized, every patient, every family, it's their journey. And we're there for them with their journey and everyone's journey looks different. And even though we provide and we use our musical skills across the spectrum, it's still going to look different for each family and what they need. So everything is tailored, every session is tailored to each baby, to each family.
Leah Roseman (00:22:54):
So when did you become aware as music therapy as a career option?
Tammy Takaishi (00:22:59):
That's a really great question. I was actually getting my first master's in music education at the University of Missouri Columbia, also known as Mizzou. And I really loved doing that, but I realized it wasn't my field. It wasn't quite what I wanted to do. I wanted to affect change more for me than in a classroom setting. I also felt very trapped. Being in a classroom setting, I like the variety of being not in a nine to five. I like the variety of not just being in one place all the time. And in hospital setting, you're all over the place. You're in multiple units. I'm actually across multiple campuses. I love that every day looks different and feels different. And so I became aware of it when I was in grad school there, and I immediately applied and just went from one degree to another. No, stop. I mean, that worked for me. It may not work for everyone. And I got my master's in music therapy right after that, and I've never been happier. I was like, oh, I got there. I got to school. I got in those classes. I was like, oh, this is it. This is my field. This is my niche. These are my people. I finally felt like I found my purpose. I belonged, and I still love teaching. I teach private music lessons on occasion. I love that, but it's not the same.
Leah Roseman (00:24:25):
Yeah, it's really fascinating. In terms of myself, I think my preconception about music therapy was kind of confined to end of life palliative. That was my idea. Or working with the elderly, which is certainly a component, but what do you think are the common misconceptions most of us have about music therapy?
Tammy Takaishi (00:24:43):
Yeah, I'm so glad you asked that. I think some of the common misconceptions across the board, no matter what community you work with, is people think that you're there to entertain. It might be entertaining, but we're not there to entertain. We're not there as performers, we're there as therapists, we're there to work with the client or the patient on specific goals and using music as the tool, as the medium. And that's what makes it therapy. Just like an art therapist isn't going to go in and they're not going to be like, oh, you're just going to paint pictures. Well, no, they're not just going to paint pictures. They're there to use art as a way of expression and therapy. Same idea there. And so that's one of the biggest misconceptions is telling people, no, we're not here to entertain. We're not the musical hour. That's not a sing along that, that's not what, there are some programmatic things that people do, but that's not the same. And one of the other misconceptions is whether or not we actually get a degree. And yes, we do board certified music therapists. You have to have a bachelor's at minimum. Most of us go for a master's or higher. We take board exams. We have a 1200 hour internship. We have practicums. It's very strenuous and very academic, and I love that. And I think it's very important. It's an allied health field, just like PT and ot, and hopefully it's getting more and more recognition. I feel like it is.
Leah Roseman (00:26:22):
So Tammy, you're specifically a neurologic music therapist?
Tammy Takaishi (00:26:25):
That is one route of training that I have. After becoming a music therapist, you can go and get additional trainings, and they don't take very long. It could be there's little pockets of extra trainings that people can do based on their interests. So neurologic music therapy is one of them. There's also guided imagery in music. There's analytic music therapy. One of the other ones that I'm just finishing up personally is Nordoff-Robbins Music Therapy. That was started by Paul Nordoff and Clive Robbins way, way back in the fifties, sixties. And they have a place at NYU and A place in London. Those are some of the main training places for that. But they're all extra trainings, extra niches that someone can go into and then apply that to the work that they do sort of as a musician, you might specialize in chamber music, for example, or maybe you'll specialize in chamber music between certain dates or with certain composers. It just gets a little more into the meat and potatoes of the work, if that makes sense.
Leah Roseman (00:27:36):
Yeah. I heard your interview with Jennifer Townsend on your podcast,reative Peacemeal, and I found it very moving. She was talking about working with, she called it Disorders of Consciousness. Sometimes people were put into a coma for medical reasons and reaching them through music therapy. Do you want to speak to that work even though you don't do it, you interviewed her?
Tammy Takaishi (00:27:56):
Yeah. It is really powerful work, and I think that what she's doing and what other music therapists are doing who work with people who are in a coma, it's just absolutely fascinating. Not only from a scientific standpoint, but just fascinating from how effective music is. I wouldn't be able to speak to it a lot just because it's not something that I do. But I definitely recommend if anyone has questions, going to the American Music Therapy Association website and checking that out and looking more into music therapy and how varied it is in general as a field and where we are and what we do. There's a lot of downloadable brochures and things that people can, and webpages that they can read about in the different populations we work on.
Leah Roseman (00:28:48):
Tammy, thanks again for meeting, because for those people watching the video, they're going to notice things look a little different because we're meeting a different day. I wanted to follow up with you because one of my main motivations with this series is to show people what a broad and interesting place a life in music can be. So you are the first music therapist I've had on the series, and it would be so cool if someone listening who was feeling a little lost, heard Tammy Takaishi and thought, wow, I could do that. So I'm going to ask you some questions about maybe some stories working with patients, and a little bit more about the training. So just to get a bit of a broader perspective on this important part of your life.
Tammy Takaishi (00:29:30):
Of course. Thank you. I'm so excited to talk about it. For me personally, I didn't know what I wanted to do in life. I just knew I wanted to do something in music, and it took me a long time to figure it out. But once I landed there, I was like, yep, that's it.
Leah Roseman (00:29:45):
So I was wondering if you had a couple stories you could share with us, because it's just a better way maybe to illustrate things.
Tammy Takaishi (00:29:53):
Yeah, I'll share some oldies, but goodies. When I was working in the school system, I worked with a young girl who was fully, legally blind, and she absolutely loved music, but was having a hard time reading and picking up on braille. And she had braille teachers specifically designed, braille implemented in her IEP to have braille lessons and as well as orientation and mobility where she was learning how to use her white cane. And I think I first met her when she was six or seven. So she was pretty young, and she was trying to navigate life in an elementary school. And life as school gets a little bit trickier.
(00:30:42):
So what I did is I took an online UEB, I think it's unified or unified English braille course, which I thought was really, really fun, and I learned some basic braille, and then we would sing songs together. But her braille teacher, her vi specialist, rather brailled out the lyrics of various songs that we would sing on a regular basis that she really loved. And then I'd have her gently follow along with her fingers with the lyrics while we sang, and it would help her to not only practice the tactile aspect and the logistical aspect of reading braille, but also picking up more letters, picking up sentence structure patterns and things like that. And then I also made up different songs about the different ways that she would use her cane, so there's trailing and tracking and sweeping. So I did different songs for different parts of those techniques, and then I would sing them with her while we walked around the halls, and I taught it to her orientation and mobility specialist. And the orientation and mobility specialist was, and the VI specialist, they were just wonderful. They were always so on board. It was like a wonderful trio to help this young child. And so they would sing the songs and she would sing the songs, and it helped her to become more independent, to not have to rely on having to hold an elbow or something like that. And she felt more comfortable navigating her school with that. And I worked with her for several years before I moved, so.
Leah Roseman (00:32:26):
Well, that is beautiful. And what strikes me about that, Tammy, of course, it's the human connection, but also the creativity required in your job for this thinking outside the box.
Tammy Takaishi (00:32:35):
Yeah, thank you. I really loved that. That's one of the things I love the field is you're never bored. You're always challenged. You're always needing to think outside the box in some capacity.
Leah Roseman (00:32:46):
Okay. Do you have a story about an older person or an unusual patient or,
Tammy Takaishi (00:32:54):
Yeah, there's so many. Just really touching stories from when I worked in hospice, and of course in hospice care you make a connection, but you know that the person is going to pass on, you just don't know when, and there's so many. But there's this one woman who lived in an adult group home, like a group nursing home with five or six other adults. And she didn't have any family, living family, but she was always so joyful, and she was a former musician. She was an organist in her church and just absolutely loved music and opera and loved to sing. And she was almost nearly blind towards the end of her life, but she loved exploring instruments when I brought them egg shakers, xylophones, little travel xylophones, but she loved to sing the most, and there was a piano in the group home as well, so I'd play for her, but we would sing.
(00:34:07):
She liked it so much that I ended up going weekly to see her for months and months and months and months. And every time I came, her face would light up. She'd get so excited. It didn't matter what kind of day she had when I was there, like you said earlier, spirits lifted and we would just sit and talk. And one time I was invited to her birthday party, which was very sweet. So I took the time. I went to her birthday party, I sang Happy Birthday, and we did a sing-along session with the people that were there, and it was really nice to provide that. And then towards the end of her life, I was able to see her. I didn't know exactly when she was going to pass, but I knew it was probably going to be that day. So I was able to go see her the morning that she passed, and I spent, I think it was almost two hours just in her room at her bedside.
(00:35:02):
The nurse was there and just singing all of the favorites that she loved. And I cried later that day, but I held it together in the moment. And it was just because she was just so sweet, so touching. I loved getting to know her, and it was such a gift to be able to meet her at that time of her life and be able to provide that, and then to be there in the final several hours. It was just so meaningful. And I really carry that with me, her memory and the memory of what we do. And so it was just really nice to be able to provide that. And I know hospice work isn't for everyone, but for those people in the music therapy world, maybe considering it or doing a practicum in there, it really grows you and changes you in ways that you wouldn't expect. And I spent three really lovely years doing hospice work, specifically hospice work in my field, and I loved every moment. I really did.
Leah Roseman (00:36:05):
Yeah. Do you think people who haven't spent time with people at that stage of life, maybe think of it as sort of a throwaway time, they talk about dying as opposed to end of life living? You know what I mean?
Tammy Takaishi (00:36:18):
I think maybe sometimes people think of it as a time that's maybe marked with a lot of fear or unknown or a ton of medical things. I mean, I can't tell you how many people say, oh, you're in hospice. You must be so strong and brave, and that must be so sad. And I'm like, it's not sad. I go and I get to spend time with people, and they're not sitting around moping in their rooms. I mean, they may have a bad day the rest of us, but they're still living. They're just an older, they're older and their routine looks different from ours, but they're still living life. They're still doing the best they can with what they've got at that time in their lives. And then bringing that extra element of music and music therapy for them to process anticipatory grief, connect with their families for those with Alzheimer's and dementia, help give them a sense of grounding. And of course, the socialization aspect. I mean, it's such a joy bringer. So the work is not, it's a misnomer to think that it's sad. It's actually very joyful. And if you are doing the work and really digging into the work, it's not going to be sad. There may be sad moments, but you're not walking in feeling depressed every day.
Leah Roseman (00:37:41):
So I'm guessing in terms of songs, you must have learned a lot of repertoire you didn't know.
Tammy Takaishi (00:37:46):
Yeah. Well, I always think of myself as an old soul. I joke that I'm 102 because I really love the songs from the twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, and that was a lot of the songs that I did do when I was working in the nursing homes and of course, songs from musicals. And I lived in Texas at the time, so country music was really popular. I'm not as familiar with country music, so I did learn quite a bit of that as well as hymns. Hymns were very popular because there's a very religious population in Texas, and especially for people of some of the older generations, some of them are very devout. So I learned a lot of hymns that I never knew. That's an area that I grew in learning those.
Leah Roseman (00:38:30):
Hi, just a quick break from the episode. I wanted to let you know about some other episodes I’ve linked directly to this one, with Martha Anne Toll, Heather Taves, Jeeyoon Kim, Gertrude “Trudy” Létourneau and Philip Griffin. Please support this series through my merch store or on my Ko-fi page, everything linked in the show notes. The merch features a unique design by artists Steffi Kelly and on my Ko-fi page you can buy me one coffee or every month. If you sign up for my newsletter you’ll get access to exclusive information about upcoming guests. Finally, if you’re finding this interesting, please follow this podcast and send it to a friend? Thanks!
(00:39:10):
Well, you had mentioned when we spoke before, and I'm not sure where we're going to edit this into the conversation, but at some point you talked about the variety that you get to work with all kinds of different populations and different places, and it's not just a fixed thing. I guess it depends on someone's music therapy path, but that's probably true, right? Especially over the course of a career that you're not stuck in one little corner.
Tammy Takaishi (00:39:36):
Yeah, yeah. That's the beauty of this field in general. You can be a professor, you can do research, you can do research while working at a place. There's hospitals like I'm at, there's VAs, there's nursing homes, schools, correctional facilities. I mean, it's just some people have their own businesses. I have several friends who have their own businesses and they travel from to home, and they work with kids, or they work with adults with developmental disabilities, or they work in the home healthcare capacity. Some people sort of cobble together different part-time jobs, and it all depends on their lifestyle, where they live and their interest, their niche.
Leah Roseman (00:40:25):
Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, you're pretty young looking ahead. Are there areas of the field you'd be curious to explore, or is that too soon to say?
Tammy Takaishi (00:40:36):
Well, I feel like I'm exactly where I want to be and need to be right now. I've always dreamed of being where I am presently, but I would love to supplement it with being a professor, like maybe teaching one or two classes or something like that so that I could still keep doing what I'm doing right now where I am, because I love teaching. I love working with interns, working with students because they're so inspiring. They're new in the field, they're just learning. They're excited. It's wonderful to pass along the information and the wisdom, and it's also wonderful to learn from them and their creativity. And they're so good with technology these days. I mean, wow, I thought I was pretty good with technology. And then you meet a younger person nowadays, and it's like, I didn't know my phone could do that. I didn't know Excel could do that. Okay. So it's great. It's just a wonderful give and take. So that's an area that I would love to do at some point, adjunct or whatever. I just want to add that into what I do.
Leah Roseman (00:41:46):
When you were learning music therapy, did you have any surprises as to the types of therapy that can be done?
Tammy Takaishi (00:41:54):
I wouldn't say surprises, just awe at the diversity of what we can do. Again, we go in and you become board certified, or in some other countries it might look a little bit different, but the curriculum is still essentially the same. And then there's these extras, like I talked about, neurologic music therapy, guided imagery, and music analytic, music therapy, rhythm, breath and lullaby. There's just all these extra, Nordoff-Robbins, all these extra niches that you can, and trainings and certifications you can add onto after. And I just remember being in awe because I thought, okay, we're always going to keep learning. We're always going to be able to find, someone will be able to find their place if they love music therapy and they love the field, but they want to be able to carve out something a little more attuned to their interests. You can find it. It's there. No two music therapists do the same thing. Maybe they work in the same place, but they're going to have different interests. They're going to have different ways that they approach the work. They're going to have different backgrounds, and there's always opportunities for learning and growing and expanding into what we do. I have a colleague whose interest is in trauma. I have other colleagues whose interests are more towards neurologic and brain. And so it just really depends, and there's space for everyone to be able to explore and learn and carve out in the field and be able to go and do the good work that we do.
Leah Roseman (00:43:42):
So I just did a little research and we talked a little bit before about some of the work you did with certain kinds of populations. I understand you can work with pattern sensory enhancement with something that came up in terms of helping like neurological patients maybe with Parkinson's or stroke. Have you done any of that kind of work?
Tammy Takaishi (00:44:04):
Yeah, so I am a neurologic music therapist as well as a board certified music therapist. And that's an additional training that people go and get. And so doing things such as entrainment and utilizing a steady beat will help. And this one's very common, help people with Parkinson's to walk with a steadier gait to pick their feet up versus shuffling, just because we just naturally entrain as humans, and that's sort of built into our system. So that is something that we utilize is whether it's a drum or a metronome, some sort of very, very steady beat to help people. But it's not just putting that on. There's a pre and a post. You watch and you measure their gait beforehand, getting to know the patient or the client, and that way you can match the beat of the metronome or your drumming, for example, to their gait so that you're not pushing them to walk too fast, for example. So you want to make that with them. And then there's post of course, where you take the beat away and you see how that is affected.
Leah Roseman (00:45:17):
Do you make it sort of, I can imagine some people would have resistance to this kind of work.?
Tammy Takaishi (00:45:22):
You mean the patients or
Leah Roseman (00:45:24):
Yeah.
Tammy Takaishi (00:45:25):
I wouldn't think so, because I mean, it might, but I have not experienced that because it sort of just flows. It just flows. Imagine if you're at a parade and you hear drums going by, you might suddenly find yourself stomping to the beat. Nobody's forcing you. It just sort of happens. It's kind of like that, except with a little more goal directed.
Leah Roseman (00:45:54):
Yeah, the thing I was most familiar with in terms of music therapy was things like aphasia when people can't speak and how they can sing lyrics they knew from earlier. Yeah. So it'd be interesting maybe to talk about, do you do work with a speech and language pathologists coordinating with them to use music therapy?
Tammy Takaishi (00:46:13):
Yeah, when I worked in the schools as well as in a little bit in hospice care, I would work with speech and language pathologists, especially for the kids with disabilities, helping with their reading goals, helping with pronunciation, because singing makes learning more fun, especially for kids. So I would coordinate with them and I would co-treat based on the goals that the speech and language pathologist would write. And I really enjoyed doing that in terms of working in hospice and palliative. Some patients had aphasia or other things that occurred just from being later in life in their lifespan. I didn't work too much with speech and language pathologists then. But of course, singing is, as you know, or making music in general, just good for our health, good for our mental health, great for breath work and respiratory. And so I would do a lot of anything from sing-alongs with groups in nursing homes to directed individual work with patients, and whether they had a stutter or aphasia or anything else, just singing in general, it would really tap into the other parts of their brain. And it was just really interesting to see, I guess you could say the before and after, so to speak, when I would come in and they'd be maybe hunched over and maybe they hadn't been seen by anyone in a while, they were kind of lonely. And then after spending time with them, singing songs, talking, getting to know them, their affect changes. They're sitting up taller. Maybe they want to go and socialize at lunchtime now, whereas before they maybe didn't feel like it. So just even that social aspect of bringing the music is so helpful, especially for the older populations. In my current work in the hospitals, I do work with speech and language pathologists, but it's in a different capacity. It's mostly in the capacity of helping with feeding support and oral motor support.
Leah Roseman (00:48:23):
How does that work with music therapy?
Tammy Takaishi (00:48:25):
Well, in this case, I'm working with babies. So we would utilize sucking patterns and cueing noises and steady beats on an instrument called a gato box. So just other techniques and working with a speech and language pathologist or the OTs even regarding the, so swallow, breathe rhythm and things like that. So it's really great the various ways that we can utilize our skills as music therapists across different communities and their needs of care.
Leah Roseman (00:49:02):
Yeah. When you were saying about basically lifting people's moods, when you're talking about working with the geriatric population, I mean, it does tie in with psychology too. Have you worked with psychologists at all that they would seek out music therapist help?
Tammy Takaishi (00:49:18):
Well, in our training, we take a lot of psychology and counseling classes. I like to think of music therapy as a marriage between the psychology world, the medical world, and the music world. So it's a nice mix, but we do work with psychologists. It just sort of depends on the capacity state. But again, we are trained, and of course in different states, there's extra licensing and things that we get to be able to dig a little more deeper into the psychotherapeutic work.
Leah Roseman (00:49:52):
And then you were in, was it Houston for many years?
Tammy Takaishi (00:49:55):
Houston, yeah.
Leah Roseman (00:49:57):
Pretty big cultural change coming from there.
Tammy Takaishi (00:49:59):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like Houston, I happened to have family there, and I'd gotten a job there right out of grad school full-time with benefits, so you have to go where the job is. And I was like, okay, not the end of the world. Although I missed New York, I missed the east coast. It's where I wanted to be. So really glad to be back. Definitely. It was almost like a cultural change to go to Houston because they have 10 lane highways and everyone drives really fast, and you can't get good Italian food down there. But then coming up here, it's the subway systems, which is great. I don't like driving at all, and you can't really find that much good Mexican food. I really miss a really good taco.
Leah Roseman (00:50:46):
That seems surprising to me that you wouldn't be able to.
Tammy Takaishi (00:50:49):
Oh, I'm sure I could. I just haven't really searched that hard. I'm not going to lie.
Leah Roseman (00:50:55):
I've only been to New York a few times, but I remember one of the first times someone said, well, we'll meet at this place for lunch. I eat there almost every day. And then he said, A lot of New Yorkers stick to a couple of blocks, and we have our places we go to. Do you think that's true?
Tammy Takaishi (00:51:12):
Yes, I do think that's true. Yeah, it's not true for me because I live in one borough and I work in another. So I'm familiar with eateries in both places. And I have friends that live across the Manhattan island, so uptown and downtown. So I feel like I'm getting really culinary experienced. But for the typical New Yorker, they stick with their same couple of blocks.
Leah Roseman (00:51:39):
Do you think people cook less in a city like that?
Tammy Takaishi (00:51:43):
That is a really great question. I know I don't cook very much. I would say yes, because there's such a wealth of wonderful options to eat. And some of them are pretty economical, and it's a lot easier than firing up the oven or taking out 10 pans and making something. And an hour and a half later you're like, well, this wasn't any good.
Leah Roseman (00:52:12):
So you've had chefs and cookbook authors on your podcast as well?
Tammy Takaishi (00:52:15):
I have. I, yeah, really find cooking. Fascinating. The idea of the culinary arts really fascinating. I love watching cooking shows. I love reading cookbooks. I'm just not so inclined to go cook myself.
Leah Roseman (00:52:33):
Yeah, I love reading cookbooks actually, and I rarely follow the recipes, but it just, it's a beautiful experience to read through a great cookbook and it gives you ideas. We talked briefly about the fact that you had been working on a novel. What inspired you to start working on a novel? What a huge project.
Tammy Takaishi (00:52:51):
Yeah, it was just, I love to read, but it was just a desire to have a story that was exactly what I wanted it to be out there, or at least out of my head and on paper that I could reread whether or not it gets published. And I've actually ended up over the many decades of creative writing, I have 13 manuscripts, about half of them are completed. So beginning, middle, end, fully formed and able to be submitted to an agent, maybe not always in the best form, maybe a little messy here and there. And that was wonderful. It was very healing for me to write. It was very just able for me to get in touch with that creative writing side and just get in touch with things that I step into the shoes of another character. I just loved it. I loved it.
(00:53:48):
And it is monumental. When I first, it took me a long time to finish the first story that was in my head. It took me, oh gosh, maybe six years to actually finish the first draft of a story, a historical story that had been percolating in my brain. But once I finished that first draft, it was like everything was on fire. And then a revision and a revision, a revision came after that. And then other books came a lot faster and a lot quicker. The fastest. I've written a book start to finish is like six, seven weeks when I had summers off.
Leah Roseman (00:54:32):
So let me wrap my head around this. When you say 13 manuscripts, you mean 13 full length novels?
Tammy Takaishi (00:54:38):
Well, only six of them are full length and the other seven are in bits and pieces.
Leah Roseman (00:54:45):
Okay, wow.
Tammy Takaishi (00:54:47):
Yeah,
Leah Roseman (00:54:48):
That's a huge amount of writing.
Tammy Takaishi (00:54:51):
But I love it though. It's definitely a part of me. It's never going to not be a part of me. It's just a little bit on the back burner. Since podcasting has taken a front burner.
Leah Roseman (00:55:00):
You talk to a lot of authors. What are some of your favorite questions you like to ask them?
Tammy Takaishi (00:55:04):
I love asking what character they would be for a day, because it's interesting, not even just their own, but any book. So it's interesting to figure that out. And I also love asking who inspired them to become an author, because sometimes it's other authors and sometimes it's a teacher who believed in them or a family member.
Leah Roseman (00:55:30):
I love asking about mentors as well. And it's interesting with novels, I read so many novels growing up. And then I think in my adulthood, I've veered more towards nonfiction. I have been getting more into fiction lately, but I'm always interested in dialogue and when I'm out and about. And sometimes my husband will say, are you eavesdropping? And I don't mean to, it's, I'm fascinated with people's conversations and what are they talking about? What's this whole story going on? And I think to be able to write great dialogue would be something. And then I also, I'm so interested with point of view, often with novels, the way you see a whole situation from many different characters, which doesn't happen in real life, we only see our view. So I find that so fascinating.
Tammy Takaishi (00:56:15):
Yeah. I love, create - I can't write fantasy or fiction. It's always like regular standard fiction, like upmarket fiction or literary fiction as those genres. And I love taking a space that I'm familiar with, whether it's a city and then just infusing these characters that are completely made up into that space. How will they live in that space? How will they interact in that space? What adventures will they get up to in places that I go and see on a regular basis? It's really neat doing that.
Leah Roseman (00:56:57):
I remember as a child going, there was a E.L. Konigsburg, I remember this author, I don't know, if you know you're familiar with that name and
Tammy Takaishi (00:57:07):
Sounds familiar.
Leah Roseman (00:57:08):
Yeah. I got into her writing and then I discovered she'd written all these other books. And I remember going and discovering that they had a whole shelf of her books and just taking home this stack and that physicality of it. Now, I actually read eBooks most of the time, but that has such a strong memory. Did reading help get you through childhood pre-internet days?
Tammy Takaishi (00:57:29):
Oh, for sure. My whole family, in addition to being very musical, was reader heavy. My mom was never without a book. My father always took us to the library. I remember getting my very first library card. That was a magical moment. And so we'd go to the library once a week and I'd check out different books. Not only when I was a kid, but even when I was in junior high in high school and I could drive myself, he would still take me to the library. So it was just a nice time to spend with my dad, and he encouraged us to always, they both encouraged us to always be reading. And I read a lot growing up. There was a period of time where I didn't read as much, and it's not because I didn't want to, it's just life got in the way. And I was in a situation where I felt like I couldn't relax enough to read. But through the help of my therapist over the years, I've been able to get back to that level of loving reading the way I did when I was younger. So it's been really nice to be able to come back to them.
Leah Roseman (00:58:36):
And in terms of music, you played many different instruments, but was violin your main focus,
Tammy Takaishi (00:58:42):
Violin and piano fairly equally? Yes. And then I picked up cello when I was in college, which I absolutely love. And then guitar and ukulele after that.
Leah Roseman (00:58:53):
But as a kid, was it hard to balance things out and get in the practice time? And were you aspiring to be like an orchestra player or a soloist at that time?
Tammy Takaishi (00:59:00):
Oh no. I was never aspiring to do anything like that. I just played it because I enjoyed it. I played it because I loved it. I definitely took time away from both instruments for a long time, not having lessons for a while, just playing it casually in orchestra class or casually practicing piano at my leisure. Performing is something that strikes me with massive fear. Not going to lie. It's not my cup of tea. It's not where I'm comfortable with. It's not anything that I can't do what you do. Not only can I not do it, I also would never aspire to because it's not where my interest lies. I enjoy playing an orchestra. I enjoy community orchestra, but I wouldn't want to take a solo. I don't like that attention. I don't like having to be so specific and honoring the music that closely to where if I mess up, I'll be like, ah, Mozart is going to be pissed.
(00:59:59):
I can't handle that at all. And so getting in the practice time as a kid, I practiced when I wanted to or if my parents made me, it was never anything, I mean, it was dedicated, but it wasn't super dedicated. The way someone who knows they want to be a performing artist does, because there's that drive that naturally comes with it. Whereas my drive was in other things. My drive was in just being well-rounded as a kid, just immersing myself in composing and literature and poetry, even when I was younger. And of course, I was also very social, so I was always out with friends.
Leah Roseman (01:00:40):
So you did an undergrad in music with the idea of maybe teaching at that point?
Tammy Takaishi (01:00:45):
Yeah, it was actually a music and English degree. So with the focus on maybe teaching, maybe composing, I definitely wasn't interested in performing at all. Just wanted to do music essentially in some fashion and have music in my life. And I also did an English degree with that, and I didn't really know where I wanted to go. So I went from there straight into grad school at the conservatory. I was there for a year, didn't really know what I wanted to do there. And then went out in the real world for a while and eventually found my way to music therapy.
Leah Roseman (01:01:18):
Yeah. So for your podcast, I'm curious, I think you mentioned at some point that you hadn't been listening to podcasts before you decided to get into it. Had you grown up listening to radio or public radio?
Tammy Takaishi (01:01:34):
I mean, some radio. My parents would always have the classical station on in Kansas City. I mean, until it went away. But in terms of radio shows, no. I had listened to very few podcasts or radio shows when I decided podcast, my desire to podcast really grew out of a curiosity, desire to learn and a desire to help out the creative community. I didn't necessarily need to show, but I thought, well, this seems to work a lot better than other mediums in this way to learn about it and promote it.
Leah Roseman (01:02:14):
I was curious about using music for motivation. Do you use music for exercise? Are you into creating playlists? Mixtapes?
Tammy Takaishi (01:02:22):
Oh yes. I have so many playlists. I have playlists for different moods that I'm in, or I have playlists for. I'm building playlists for working out. Sometimes I'll just play one of my other playlists and I'll be like, oh no, this really works. And then other times I'm like, now I need to. So playlists, yes, music for motivation a hundred percent. You don't have to be a music therapist to do it. I think building whatever works best for you, a person and what you need, and you could never have too many playlists. And it's also okay to have just one playlist. It's like whatever works for that person. But I absolutely love it and I definitely, and it depends on what platform I'm on too, because I have playlists on Spotify, I have playlists on YouTube, I have playlists on Apple Music, and they're all different based on what music I found at that time, what I was going through, what kind of playlists I need. I have playlists for when I write novels, playlists for different books that I've created, playlists for characters. So all sorts of things. And I'm always looking for new music and I love getting recommendations from people because there's nothing more exciting than hearing something for the first
Leah Roseman (01:03:34):
Time. Yes, I agree. And I'm constantly listening to new music and I don't create playlists, but I find this whole thing really interesting. I was getting my haircut and I go every three months or whatever, and I realized it was the same music I'd heard the last time and that I'd heard the time before that. And I said to her, do you have one playlist? She said, oh yeah. And I realized that was just, that's what she does. And it kind of blew my mind. And then I remember there was this Chinese restaurant I used to go to with my parents when I was a kid, and I realized, I think they had Vivaldi or something playing, I think it was Vivaldi, and I thought, it's the same concerto every time we come in here. Don't the staff get so tired of it? But I guess people maybe block it out or absorb it in a different way.
Tammy Takaishi (01:04:27):
I'm so glad you mentioned that about ambient music in restaurants and public spaces, because I'm always tuned into that. I'll be talking to someone or listening to someone in the middle of an intense conversation. Something will come on and I literally, it's like I have to pause. I will pause so that because the music captures me, I can't focus on both. Or there's music that might be irritating, or it'll be a song that we'd already heard maybe 25 minutes ago, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I don't want to hear this again. I don't like repeats. And so it affects my dining experience or my experience as a whole. The music is really effective. Or if it's too loud. Oh, if the music is too loud. Oh my goodness. I can't even explain how horrible it's, it's just awful.
Leah Roseman (01:05:17):
As we record this, I just came back from a trip with my orchestra to South Korea and Japan for a couple of weeks, and my husband and I noticed virtually every time we went in to eat anywhere there was jazz, piano, music playing. And then we had a meal, and I said, did you notice? He said, yeah, there's no music playing. It's the first time. But there was this constancy. And then I realized at one point it was like a jazz piano radio station, and maybe that was the radio station, although we are in different countries, so that wouldn't have been the same, but it's definitely like a cultural preference or an idea about what is good dining music. It was, and then one time we were somewhere and then we realized, oh, there's somebody playing live, and it is jazz piano. It wasn't like a jazz bar. This is great. They're paying somebody. Anyway. That's funny.
Tammy Takaishi (01:06:07):
Yeah, there's a Chinese buffet that I have gone to in Texas that always played holiday music, specifically jazz holiday music like year round. And you know what? It made it charming. It made it charming. It was part of the ambiance of that place.
Leah Roseman (01:06:28):
Like Christmas music. Yeah, one of these hotels we were in at breakfast, they had Kenny G Christmas music playing. It was really weird in June. So Tammy does a charity you'd like to support Aha Broadway that you're involved with. Do you want to speak about their mission?
Tammy Takaishi (01:06:50):
Yeah, I would love to. I'm actually one of the board members I'm absolutely honored to be part of Aha Broadway. They're based in New York City, but they do provide arts, education and workshops via Zoom worldwide. The mission is to provide low cost arts and provide accessibility to arts, to underserved populations from the young children all the way through older adults, all age groups, and they do wonderful work. But as you know, with most nonprofits, fundraising is always a difficult battle. And if anyone listening to this wants to give to Aha Broadway, it's a wonderful nonprofit that I believe in. I absolutely love the board members care deeply about the arts, deeply about the community, deeply about affecting positive change with the kids, with the adults, with everyone that we work with. I'm not a teaching artist, but I do, I am aware of what goes on and how hard they work, and especially now with a lot of, it's harder to get grants nowadays and funding, and I'm just awe that people still show up and are still so passionate about the work that is done regardless of the fact that it might be a harder funding year than others, for example.
Leah Roseman (01:08:27):
Wonderful. I do like to ask people if there's anything I didn't ask you about that you'd like to talk about.
Tammy Takaishi (01:08:33):
I thought you did a wonderful job giving people a smorgasbord of who I am and all the things I do. I can't think of anything. It's been so, so nice to be on your show. I feel absolutely honored to be there amongst so many wonderful guests in your repertoire.
Leah Roseman (01:08:51):
Well, thanks so much, Tammy. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please share this with your friends and check out episodes you may have missed at LeahRoseman.com. If you could buy me a coffee to support this series, that would be wonderful. I'm an independent podcaster and I really do need the help of my listeners. All the links are in the show notes. The podcast theme music was written by Nick Kold. Have a wonderful week.
