Sophie Lukacs Transcript
Leah Roseman:
Hi, Sophie Lukacs. Kora player. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Sophie Lukacs:
Hi Leah. Thank you so much for having me.
Leah Roseman:
So I'm so glad you agreed to play for us and show us all about the kora. So could you play something first
and then later on, we'll talk about how the instrument works.
Sophie Lukacs:
Yeah, sure. So t his first piece is a traditional piece and it's called Jula Jegere.
Leah Roseman:
Okay. Thank you. That was beautiful.
Sophie Lukacs:
Thank you.
Leah Roseman:
So not everyone, some people who'll be listening to the podcast format and they won't see what you're
doing.
Sophie Lukacs:
Okay.
Leah Roseman:
So if you could describe a little bit what the instrument looks like.
Sophie Lukacs:
Sure. Sure. So for the listeners of the podcast, I'll just talk a little bit about the instrument I'm playing. So
kora has 21 strings and it's a diatonic and we have on the bottom, so the closest to the person playing it,
we have the C and then alternating and then the three on the top on the right. And we're playing with
our thumbs and our four fingers. And basically the left hand thumb is usually playing the
accompaniment and that is kind of going all the time and also with the right thumb, which has like a
little bit more liberty. And then you're playing the melody and improvising on top. So the song you just
heard, obviously the... So that's always going, and those are the thumbs that are playing that.
Sophie Lukacs:
So when you're starting out to learn, I guess the difficulty is the melodies are quite simple in the
traditional pieces, you can catch those fairly simply with your four fingers, but then integrating that with
the thumbs that are going all the time is a little bit more tricky. And then the next level is of course is
improvisation, which has a huge role in the tradition of kora players. And that's a little bit tricky, that
takes a little bit longer to learn.
Leah Roseman:
So to follow up with the construction of the instrument, it's sort of a cross between a loot and a harp,
would you say?
Sophie Lukacs:
Yes. I mean, it's like historically, in ethnomusicology it's written as a harp lute and it's a kind of African
harp lute that dates back a little bit longer, it's from the 13th century.
Leah Roseman:
Could you hold up the body so we can see. It's beautiful.
Sophie Lukacs:
Calabash. And I have my mic, I'm so sorry. I have my mic here on the bridge. And yeah, it's every kora is
unique. Obviously the size of the calabash, they used to be much larger, which produces a much nicer
sound, but as things evolved, like we're traveling with them, it's difficult to carry them on planes and
with the huge calabashes so they've become smaller. And there's even like little mini ones, which sound
kind of terrible because they don't resonate. And the neck, traditionally, they were leather rings for
tuning. And I guess in the past 30 years, they started switching to guitar keys, tuning keys. The leather
strings were incredibly difficult to tune. You imagine with 21 strings so you would try to tune one up and
then they would like all slide or one would slide and you would spend hours. That's how I was initiated
into my kora studies on them. I'm sorry. I don't have the strength. It was also very like physical to move
them.
Leah Roseman:
I had heard that tourists would go to west Africa, hear the kora. I love it. Buy it one and then not be able
to tune it when they got home.
Sophie Lukacs:
I'm sure.
Leah Roseman:
It would just be decorative.
Sophie Lukacs:
Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. With the leather rings. I mean, yeah, it was very difficult, especially also, not to talk
of when the strings break with the traditional leather rings, to change that, I mean, it's a whole process.
You like stick this sharp object to get some space and then the whole thing, it's quite complicated, but a
lot of kora players in Mali now use keys.
Leah Roseman:
So you just recorded, and it'll be coming out soon, your first solo album.
Sophie Lukacs:
Yes, my first, yes, my first album. Yes. It was a long time in the coming. I studied in Mali for six years and
I guess I started working on the album about two years ago and there are original compositions, I guess,
influenced by obviously the Malian music and the traditional music, but also classical music that I grew
up in. I think it's using the kora in a very different way. I think the hardest thing about finding my voice
with the kora was that it's an instrument that is so rooted in the tradition and, unlike the piano or the
guitar, or even the violin, we're accustomed to it being used in many different genres. And the kora is
still very much in the tradition. And so taking it out of its tradition and trying to find my own sound was
very difficult, but I think I succeeded and I recorded it in Mali with some really amazing musicians and
I'm really excited to share it with everyone.
Leah Roseman:
Congratulations. And can you give us a taste of some of those tunes?
Sophie Lukacs:
Yes, of course. So this song is called Before You and normally it would be played with a bass calabash
and the jeli ngoni, which is like the banjo predecessor. So if you've seen Béla Fleck's film-
Leah Roseman:
I did. Yeah.
Sophie Lukacs:
Yeah. So okay. (Singing).
Leah Roseman:
Beautiful. You have a lovely voice.
Sophie Lukacs:
Thank you.
Leah Roseman:
Did you do much singing before you started doing songwriting?
Sophie Lukacs:
Well, I guess when I started the violin quite young, I was doing a lot of Orff and Kodaly and so there was
singing involved, but I didn't, and then I played the guitar when I was kind of 11, 12, 13, so I was singing,
but I only started, I think, working seriously on it about four years ago and studying with different
coaches and teachers. I think as an instrumentalist, especially with the violin and then this, it wasn't like
a natural transition. I always really wanted to write songs and be a singer songwriter. But, but yeah, it
was definitely, it was challenging, I think with the violin as an instrumentalist, you can hide behind the
instrument sometimes or I mean I was. And so with singing, it was really making myself a lot more
vulnerable and with the songs I was writing too. So that was challenging, but also like amazing as well
because it was the goal.
Leah Roseman:
So when you first heard the kora, the first time live, had you heard it before in records or were you
aware of it?
Sophie Lukacs:
Yeah, so my story goes back to 2008, actually. And I was in Burkina Faso. I was studying at McGill
University. I was not really sure what I wanted to do or could study, or I was a little bit searching and I
was doing a program in like international development and I had gone to Burkina Faso for a few months
and I heard the kora there and I was introduced so many like amazing Malian musicians, and I became
obsessed with the kora and I wanted to start playing, but it didn't really seem realistic. And I think I also
didn't have the courage. I wasn't ready.
Sophie Lukacs:
And a few years went by, I was studying to become a doctor and I wasn't really enjoying it. I thought
that's what I wanted to do. And I was living in New York at the time and I was seeing the kora
everywhere and I thought, or maybe it wasn't everywhere, my dad was asking me about this the other
day. I think it was just I saw it twice. And I was like, "This is a sign. I need a lesson." There was a concert
at the Met Museum and it was a player from Mali, Yacouba Sissoko. And I went up to him and I said, "I
need a lesson." And that was in 2013. And I remember the first time I held a kora, it was in his
apartment in Harlem. And after that I kind of knew right away, I needed to play this instrument. And I
think it was, I think I probably needed to play music again because I had decided not to play the violin or
continue playing professionally. And so I think this was my way back to music. And I mean, what a way
back to music.
Sophie Lukacs:
So after that, I started, I spent one year trying to take lessons in New York. I didn't have a kora. I lived in
Brooklyn and the teacher lived in the Bronx and we would meet like in the middle, in the city, I was like
carrying the kora round. I didn't have a case or anything. I was just kind of lugging this huge kora around
and-
Leah Roseman:
Excuse me, where would you meet like a park or, I mean?
Sophie Lukacs:
Literally we would meet in the park. Once, we met in Central Park. We met in Alphabet City. We would
just meet in the park that was kind of in the middle. I mean, I knew pretty quickly that I really needed to
go back to west Africa, but I was a little, I knew right away that this was it, but I had a little bit of trouble
accepting that because, my parents have thought I kind of lost my mind. I was going to be a doctor and
now I'm playing the kora or what even is this instrument. They were a little bit worried. And I was too, I
didn't really trust myself, I think, or have the courage to make this kind of decision. So I was treading
carefully.
Sophie Lukacs:
And then Toumani Diabaté, he gave a masterclass in Paris and my mom said, "You have to go, it's
Toumani." And by that point, I think I knew every single one of his notes. I had listened so much to the
repertoire. And so I went and he invited me to Mali and that was it. It was a no brainer. And so I went
and that was September, 2015.
Leah Roseman:
Really, you talk about bravery, you're so brave to do something like that. And when I was looking, I was
actually interested in interviewing a kora player because I had some kora albums and I've always loved
that sound. And on this series, I like to talk to all kinds of different musicians, but when I saw your story
and that used to be a violinist and that you didn't grow up with this music of west Africa and you really
immersed yourself and you learned Bambara as well, the language that's spoken in Mali, how is that
said? Did I say that wrong?
Sophie Lukacs:
Yeah, no, it's fine. Yeah. It's actually in Bambara it's [foreign language]. But yeah, I mean, we say
Bambara. Yeah. You said it perfect.
Leah Roseman:
So that must have been incredible as well. I mean, it's completely different language group from your
other languages.
Sophie Lukacs:
Yeah the language was really hard. I'm pretty good with languages. I pick them up quite quickly, but
Bambara was very difficult. I think, obviously had no references. And I guess the fact that I had quite a
solid foundation in music and classic music, well, it was kind of a double edged sword. I thought that I
would learn the kora very quickly. I thought playing the violin, you learn quite complicated pieces, you
memorize. So in comparison, the melodies seem quite simple, but this is very deceiving of course,
because to play any instrument well takes a very long time and the kora is its own kind of beast or its
own, like every instrument has its own-
Leah Roseman:
Special challenges.
Sophie Lukacs:
Yeah. Yeah. And I, of course, completely underestimated how challenging it would be. Not only was I
learning a new instrument, a new musical culture with completely different idioms and everything, I was
living in a completely different environment. So it was like everything you knew, you put that aside
because you can't really use it here. And, in hindsight it was an incredible experience which taught me
so much. I thought I was going to learn about the kora, but really it changed my life.
Sophie Lukacs:
But yeah, it was very challenging, very challenging, just the physical climate or the geographical climate
in and of itself in Mali, it's the Sub-Saharan Desert. It's very, very hot. So we were all like the physical
ailment of the typhoid and malaria and all of that in the beginning, it was nonstop. And then the
challenge of trying to learn an instrument, which doesn't, the pedagogy is completely different from
classical music. So here, you go through the school or you do the Suzuki, you do the grades one to 10
and there are teachers and everything is, there's not really this air of secrecy or that it's... Anybody can
learn to study the violin. And with the kora because I think, well, it's quite complex, but there are no
partitions, it's all oral.
Sophie Lukacs:
So especially in the beginning, you need teachers, you really need teachers to pass on the knowledge
and to show you the basics. There's no school, there's no conservatory. You just have to immerse
yourself in the media and find the teachers who you like their style. They maybe have good way of
teaching. So it's all of this very informal kind of community that you have to figure it out yourself.
Nobody could really help me because other people hadn't really done this intensive study, I think, in the
kora. So I think most people I know who play the Kora go for a few weeks and then return home. And I
said, "No, I want to learn it. I want to master it." So I treated it kind of as a conservatory, I'm going, it's
going to be the kora, only the kora all the time. And so I think the advantages were, I was completely
immersed in it and I learned how to speak Bambara, not fluently, but enough to get by.So there were
the advantages and the disadvantages, it was also incredibly isolating at times.
Leah Roseman:
And you were there during the beginning of the pandemic as well?
Sophie Lukacs:
Yeah. I was there for a year last year and by now, I have good friends and it's very different from when I
first arrived. So it was quite different, but I was there this year and I was mostly working on the album
and doing other things, I teach a lot. I teach Pilates.
Leah Roseman:
Are you teaching the kora as well?
Sophie Lukacs:
Yeah, I have some students, some women students, little bit all over the world and there, well, I've had
Malian students who come sometimes to the house. So that's actually really nice. I really love teaching.
Leah Roseman:
And let's talk about the violin. So that was your first instrument.
Sophie Lukacs:
Yes, it was my first instrument. I was three, four, and I mean, I grew up in a very musical family. We have
a lot of musicians in Budapest and my mom took me to see a lot of, a lot of classical music and I saw this
incredible Hungarian folk band called Muzsikás. And if anyone is listening, they should look them up.
They're probably the best Hungarian folk group. They're incredible. And they were playing in Toronto at
the Ashkenazi Music Festival and they were, I mean, and I told my mom, I want to do what that guy's
doing. It looked so fun. Of course, then the classical repertoire was not always as much fun as how much
they made it look. So I started studying classical and played in orchestras up until McGill, I played in
orchestra there as well. And then I took, I guess, a few years break for music, although I guess I never
really left, never really left music.
Leah Roseman:
Were you playing violin in different styles when you were like a teenager?
Sophie Lukacs:
So it was mostly classical and then a little bit of like Celtic in the summers at music camps.
Leah Roseman:
But not Hungarian music at all?
Sophie Lukacs:
That came later on. No, it was really pure classical. And then later, I guess later on when I started playing
the kora was when, I mean, I guess this sounds kind of ridiculous to some people, but it was probably
when I first realized that I could improvise on the violin and I didn't need to just play classical music. And
for me, this was like, "Wow, this was a revelation." And so I started playing, I started learning a lot of the
Hungarian folk music and when I first started playing the kora, when I was first in Mali, I was playing the
violin. But then I put it aside because I really wanted to concentrate on the kora. But I hope to start
playing the violin again. I mean, not I hope, I would like to, but at some point, yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Sophie, do you think that because you're learning by ear so much, your time in Mali, that when you
went back to the violin, it was easier to just trust that you could play by ear?
Sophie Lukacs:
Yes. I think that's part of it, but I think when I, even before I went to Mali, I remember I took my violin
and I was playing along with like Ali Farka Touré, legendary Mali guitarist. I think it was also like
rediscovering the incredible joy of music and that I had maybe lost that a little bit with the violin,
thinking I had to play classical music and if it wasn't good enough, then I couldn't play the violin. And so I
think in many ways the kora and the way I learned it and the way they learned it, it was so different, so
opposite to the way I studied classical music, it was really liberating.
Sophie Lukacs:
I just remember I had been in Mali for a few years and I was playing a concert with this incredible
balafon player who actually tours with the Kronos Quartet. He's part of a trio of Malian musicians who
play with the Kronos Quartet and they've been amazing collaboration. And we were playing and in Mali,
often you're playing, you take turns soloing, improvising. And he was like, "Okay, Sophie, like [foreign
language]." And I was like, and I think I started playing a solo of like Toumani or one that I had
memorized. And he was like, "No." He's like, "You." And I was like, "No, I can't, it's not..." And that was
kind of a breaking point for me where I realized, "Okay, it's now or never, I have to let go of this, these
ideas of perfection and playing these kind of pre-composed melodies. You have to improvise." And that
was incredibly freeing.
Leah Roseman:
Wow. Yeah. That's wonderful. So a balafon is with mallets?
Sophie Lukacs:
Yes. Yeah. Wooden, I guess kind of like the xylophone, I think as old as the kora and they are the
pentatonic, but also diatonic like the really huge ones and they're two rows. Originated in Guinea, also in
Mali.
Leah Roseman:
Is that instrument featured in, you mentioned the Béla Fleck movie, Throw Down Your Heart. Was that
the instrument featured in there where the whole village puts together this huge instrument and it's in
two rows that I remember.
Sophie Lukacs:
I can't remember, I watched it quite a long time ago, but I can send the link and maybe we can post it.
Maybe the album with Kronos is a really nice introduction.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Sophie Lukacs:
A bridge between classical. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
So in terms of violin, why do you think you didn't pursue violin professionally?
Sophie Lukacs:
Oh my God, the biggest regret of my life. I mean, to be perfectly honest, I was not mature enough when I
was a youth and I really loved music, but I mean, the real answer is a bit longer. I don't know if it's, I
think so... I think if we had stayed in Budapest, I would be a violinist. When we grew up, we immigrated
to Toronto and I felt a little bit as an outsider at my school and community where I grew up, there
weren't a lot of people who played music at school and it wasn't really considered cool. And I loved
orchestra on the weekends. It was really my favorite part of the week. But I think I was so influenced by
my peers and I really wanted to fit in. And so I wasn't really able to embrace classical music or music I
think. I loved it and I think I had a really good ear and my mom saw that and she really fostered and
encouraged that, but it wasn't enough. It has to come from you. And I think I wasn't ready.
Sophie Lukacs:
So it was during university when I think I really, really started to dive into music and really listen and
have the patience to really hear it. I think I was a little bit too busy worrying about what other people
were thinking of me to be abl to be a musician at that point. That's the truth. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I mean, I kept it a... Like no one, I don't think people really knew in high school that I played violin.
Like it was-
Sophie Lukacs:
Really? Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
I understand completely. And it's very lonely, right? The hours you have to put in.
Sophie Lukacs:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
And lack of certainty about the future, if you're following this path to be a classical violinist, that it's very
competitive.
Sophie Lukacs:
Yeah. I mean, I think I wasn't even really , I didn't even really get to that. I was kind of like, when I was
10, my teacher she was like, "She's so talented. She really, she could go to Julliard" And I think my mom
was like, "Wow." But for me, I was like, "I'm like a soccer player and I'm more interested in being
popular." That's really how it was at that age. I used to have a lot of regret about it, but I found my way
back to music and-
Leah Roseman:
In a big way. Yeah.
Sophie Lukacs:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
I think like so many choices in life you're always, every time you accept something, you're giving
something up at every turn that we take in our lives.
Sophie Lukacs:
Yeah. Absolutely. I think if you're happy with where you are in your life, the regrets don't really serve
any purpose. And so I'm going to play song called Falling. (Singing).
Leah Roseman:
Lovely. Thank you. They seem like very personal songs. Do you want to speak to some of that or not?
Sophie Lukacs:
Oh yeah, sure. I mean, yeah. Well, I think art is always personal most of the time, and anyway, my
process of writing music is. I don't know that there were songs that are, I think, like universal in their
pain or in their beauty. And I think there's a reason why like 95% of songs are written about love.
Leah Roseman:
So back in Montreal, you're playing some gigs, what's the scene like for west African music and
collaborations?
Sophie Lukacs:
Oh, this is a really good question because it's what I'm trying to figure out right now. And also with my
music, I used to believe that I had to play with west African musicians if I'm playing the kora. And I guess
it's been a journey and it's evolved. I believe that less. I think also the more confidence I have as a
musician, I think I'm less stuck in these paradigms. Like, "Well, if I'm playing the kora, I need to be
playing with a Malian or a Senegalese." Of course, it's great. I love playing in Mali, but when I'm here, I
think music needs to evolve and cross barriers. So I play with a lot of different musicians and I'm trying
to figure out the formula for my group and how to show the album in Canada.
Sophie Lukacs:
And right now it's with a Cuban and a Hungarian, Cuban percussionist and a Hungarian cellist. So yeah, I
mean, there are lots of wonderful musicians here and the world music scene is pretty strong and there
are some great musicians from Senegal and Mali, but I'm also interested in exchange and collaborative
process. And I think that can come from anywhere.
Leah Roseman:
Wonderful. Yeah. That's beautifully expressed Sophie. Well, I want to thank you so much for this
conversation today and playing for us. Would you have any final words of advice for a young person who
is kind of on the path that you were on, at a crossroads, trying to find some completely different musical
path?
Sophie Lukacs:
Yeah. I don't know. I guess it sounds a little bit cliche, but just listen to your intuition or your gut. If you
feel strongly connected to an instrument or a type of music, then you should pursue it and don't worry
too much about how it's going to work out. And I think art cannot really thrive with all those limits or
limites. And you just have to, I think you just, you have to keep doing it and keep playing and keep
searching. And that sounds like terrible advice, but trust your... Just keep coming back to why you
started to play music or why you're connected to the music and it should work out.
Leah Roseman:
That's great advice. Okay. Well, thank you so much.
Sophie Lukacs:
Thank you, Leah. Thank you so much.
